to think Mumsnet should delete posts in which women are called cis

[violetsarentblue]

I (and I imagine quite a lot of women on here) are fed up with being referred to as cis. I find the term deeply insulting.
I'm a woman and prefer to be addressed as a 'woman', not a cis woman.

I noticed MN are quick to delete posts where transgender people are called 'he' instead of 'she', because that group of people find the term insulting and MN don't want to offend.

Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes.

Please - could we have the same depth of consideration for our wishes?

Thank you.

wendy I guess I just didn't read enough pseudo-science and tumblr accounts, eh ?

seriously is there some weird parallel universe with a host of trans MPs , CEO's and presidents ruling the world? And excluding all of us with our lovely "I was born with it" vaginas!

Someone linked to an article recently and I can't find it but it had several examples that address this question.

But why don't you google to find out who is the highest paid woman CEO in the USA.

(Martine Rothblatt)

Jesus Christ. Just googled Goldblatt. This is the description of her company:

TMF safekeeps mindfiles and biofiles of lifenauts for future revitalization in accordance with their consents and technology advancements, while also spreading the good word that software people are people too — not having a body makes you differently abled, not sub-human.

Stopfucking, Well you'd have to believe that trans women are not men for that statement to work. There was a man with lovely long hair along with a multicoloured jumper that many women's clothing sections would sport. I didn't think he was a woman. It is not just how you can chisel and cloth and disguise yourself into an expression of what a woman looks like (or blow up doll in some instances). All artifice. The substance doesn't change, it is just style.

Men who identify as transwomen were not born, have not lived or function as females. They don't have the same biological issues of maternity problems and childcare because men do not share the same responsibility, usually. There was an interesting article where Nicola Sturgeon says in response to another article that she did not sacrifice having a family to get ahead in her political career. I have never heard a man have to say that. You need to have support if you have children and be free to achieve your potential. Rather like a man usually does. They do not have the same hurdles as women. They are attempting to define women and tread on the rights of women in the same way as men have always done. Even if they sport a dress or skirt like all good Roman men did. Or clerics. Well there is the touch of theatre about it.

Can I just ask again how much of an issue this is on mumsnet? Obviously there has been lots of debate around the issue recently but I can't remember seeing anywhere people being routinely labelled as 'cis'.

Not that I disagree that there are issues at the moment. But I do wonder whether a focus on a subset of people who may be very vocal and aggressive in their approach will not end up doing the rest of the trans community a disservice. At the moment there are lots of threads around and groans go up that there's yet another trans-activist etc.

what on earth is a 'trans-black-trans-woman' FGS? or a 'cis-black-cis-woman'?

To think there are still women fighting for the right to vote in some parts of the world, yet here we are inventing labels so we can separate and divide. What great progress that is.

Oh, sorry - I said' woman'; I must be some kind of fascist then mustn't I? beware the language Nazis.

It all depends on the context. If you are being referred to as CIS in general conversation then that could be annoying. If it is in the context of talking about groups of people in a transgender scenario then it could be useful.

Don't think it is worth making a huge fuss about though.

Maybe we should all try and emulate Prince circa 1993 and call ourselves unpronounceable squiggles. That would be better than some of the ludicrous inventions I 've seen on this board today.

Wow pandarific, that's a really great, well argued case you've put forward! You don't get it do you? Suggest you do a tad more reading, frankly.

It is a sort of terrorism. But by the patriarchy. Just when you thought women had a chance to keep their heads above water, along come another group of men and try to push you under again.

Pepper, what is a cis or trans anything outside of a chemical context?

I don't know anyone in rl who uses the word cis and most people wouldn't even know what it means.

I am not in any way phobic about anyone or what they choose to do with their life and I (as should everyone) accept anyone and everyone for what they are and hope everyone is just happy.

Trans women are trans women and women are women.
If a man identifies as a woman and feels like a woman and wants to live as a woman then great, he's a trans woman and then becomes a She.
But it doesn't make that person an ACTUAL woman. To be an actual woman you need to be born a girl and grow up to be a woman.
They are trans women. I don't see the problem.

I might be technically cis but why on earth do I have to call myself cis or why would anyone call me cis, there's not billions of trans women about that we need to identify as one or the other or people will be confused as to whether I'm trans or cis.

Is the argument that trans women feel insulted to be called that? If that's the case, then that's barmy. They can call themselves women but ultimately they are trans women.
It doesn't matter to me what anyone calls themselves, but if I wanted to be a swan I could call myself a swan and look like a swan and everyone should call me a swan but I'd still be a swan who used to be a woman. I'd be a trans swan. Why would that insult me, that's what I am.

No doubt I'll get flamed.

Don't worry Pangurban you can have your mindfiles revitalised in future and be a human without a body! Hang in there lifenaut!

I retract the 'more reading' remark - it was an arsey comment to make.

I wasn't putting forward a case, I was pointing out the word is not, and has never been an insult - I've only seen it perceived as such on MN.

"Can I just ask again how much of an issue this is on mumsnet?"

I'm not sure. But I think that people who are on other forums and in certain very pro-trans circles are feeling quite inhibited by current pro-trans orthodoxy. certain people like to think of mumsnet as a home, as a safe place for women. I know it's not only women here but it is a more-than-usually woman-dominated forum and there is a certain lingua franca and etiquette associated with this which is quite precious. I have a feeling that the motivating force behind this thread is an emotional sense of "oh no, not mumsnet too. Surely not mumsnet!"

There was a mistake near the beginning of the thread: it has been corrected but I just want to reinforce that cis has nothing to do with sexual orientation. In some ways the push towards a supremacy of "gender identity" is a push against freedom of sexual romantic expression no matter what sex or gender you are.

I am not sure how many of the gay community would like to see a separation between LGB and T. I know there are some, I wonder how many?

I can't say this enough - what women need to be careful of is society's reaction to all this.

Such as in the example in Ireland, a place where women do not have reproductive rights over their own bodies. It seems a little contradictory at first glance that such a place is down with the right on genderbender trend. Except it isn't contradictory at all, quite the opposite, it makes perfect sense that societies which disadvantage girls and women embrace genderism (for that is what transgenderism is). This applies also to lesbophobic and homophobic societies too - they will take genderism over homosexuality any day of the week.

This is why the issue won't go away and why it appears to be taking up so much space for such a minority/small group.

A small group has the backing of great swathes of society - those that seek to subjugate, control and exploit girls and women. And if that means pretending that they believe transwomen to be female that is no biggie for them because it is totally worth it.

And the heavy lifting is being done by lots of people who think that they better actually believe that transwomen are female because to not to is to be.........drum roll..... A Bigot. And being A Bigot is the worst thing in the world. Much worse than being subjugated, controlled and exploited.

Note that there is no equivalent of "TERF" used for men.

Strange times.

of course we should be called women/woman. I am not cis anything and I really object to having my status as just 'woman' taken away from me.

Do trans people object to being called 'trans-woman'?

Zoeturtle, "Cis shouldn't be directed at a poster who's said she doesn't want to be called cis, just like a poster shouldn't be called "he" if the poster identifies as a she."*

Caitlyn Jenner is publicly identifying as a man called Bruce Jenner on the clip showing the filling out of a golf club application form. They are not identifying as the transwoman called Caitlyn Jenner that gives rise to the show. i.e. a she, yet we still have to identify them as a she.

If your going by that logic, surely it should be opt in for both. Normally, a man is referred to as he. When a man says they are a trans woman, it seems mumsnet insist they should be referred to as a she.

Women are normally referred to as women. That is the name in english for an adult female. Unless you state a preference for cis, you should not be labelled as such. It should also automatically be deleted unless an adult female prefers to be called a cis woman, rather than the usual woman.

Well Pete could be used for an equivalent. Terf is pronounced like turf, I presume. So turf and peat. Well makes as much sense as anything else.

I am a bit wtf about this.
If you are born female and remain so then you are a woman same for man, if you obv identify and become transgender then you become that gender Imo and i would call them that if they wanted and out of respect ,Identify yourself and not let others do it for you. If someone told me to call myself cis woman they would be told where to go.

Lock, the problem with "dropping the T" is that a lot of LGBT bodies have trans/pro-trans people at the top who don't want to know .

Stonewall don't give a shit. Nor do GLAAD in the US. Someone's already mentioned the cotton ceiling but Google it. Young lesbians are being guilted on social media for not liking dick. Lesbian events have to be trans-inclusive, and with that now meaning "if I say I'm female I'm female..."

I've just walked out on the whole scene now.

And Sandi Bloody Toksvig is grinning at me from the bottom of the page again. I'm getting sick of that women and her Transwomen's Equality Party.

It is indeed scary.

Smashing makes a great point about Ireland. How is it that a very conservative Catholic country embraces trans-rights in a heartbeat and is squeamish about even allowing women to refuse consent to procedures in labour?

That has to tell you that this is not as it seems on the surface.

I always assumed I would be pro-transrights until I very accidentally stumbled on and read a discussion where a transactivist actually said it would be cissexist for a lesbian not to want to sleep with "her" and.. and.. for that lesbian not to want the "transwoman" to put "her" penis inside the lesbian's vagina.

I hate even writing that.

I am sure that there are lots of very ordinary transpeople who don't think or act in this way but I am concerned at the move towards viewing "cis" women as bigots for even questioning some very dangerous assumptions about gender that have been so damaging to women over millenia.

If you don't identify as a 'cis' woman, is it not equally as misgendering as calling a man who identifies as a trans woman a he.

The term for an adult human female is woman. Whys this not the default and a specific request to be labelled as anything else such as 'cis' the only time the term 'Cis' Woman is accepted.

fusion, abortion is also illegal in many situations in Northern Ireland (i.e.. the UK) and roughly about half the population there is identifying as protestant. Strong shades of protestant fundamentalism, of course. Creationism and the like. These are also the chappies that blocked the same sex marriage issue in Stormont recently, DUP I think.

I think I read that the punishment for procuring illegal abortion in NI (the UK) is a life sentence but a relatively liberal 14 years in Ireland.

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-health/11675113/Abortion-Northern-Ireland-nightmare-law-could-be-about-to-change.html

See the point you were making.