to think Mumsnet should delete posts in which women are called cis

[violetsarentblue]

I (and I imagine quite a lot of women on here) are fed up with being referred to as cis. I find the term deeply insulting.
I'm a woman and prefer to be addressed as a 'woman', not a cis woman.

I noticed MN are quick to delete posts where transgender people are called 'he' instead of 'she', because that group of people find the term insulting and MN don't want to offend.

Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes.

Please - could we have the same depth of consideration for our wishes?

Thank you.

I think certain men always resent when women have their own groups or space and this is just an extreme example. This is one reason why this forum is often vilified, because it's mainly for women, run by women and we can express ourselves freely.
I've noticed on other forums with equal male and female members any subject concerning women's rights, such as FGM quickly gets hijacked to include male circumcision. It's as if some men just have to take over everything we have).
That is what underlies the more aggressive side of transgenderism IMO (and I'm not including people like our poster Ego in this category).

I haven't read everything but wanted to agree. I also think that they zap what they will get credit for but let some bullying go much too far because it's amusing as long as it doesn't tick any of their boxes. Its just a business like any other.

Smashing Turnips, yet another brilliant, thought provoking post

Can't say this enough - what women need to be careful of is society's reaction to all this.

Such as in the example in Ireland, a place where women do not have reproductive rights over their own bodies. It seems a little contradictory at first glance that such a place is down with the right on genderbender trend. Except it isn't contradictory at all, quite the opposite, it makes perfect sense that societies which disadvantage girls and women embrace genderism (for that is what transgenderism is). This applies also to lesbophobic and homophobic societies too - they will take genderism over homosexuality any day of the week.

This is why the issue won't go away and why it appears to be taking up so much space for such a minority/small group.

A small group has the backing of great swathes of society - those that seek to subjugate, control and exploit girls and women. And if that means pretending that they believe transwomen to be female that is no biggie for them because it is totally worth it.

And the heavy lifting is being done by lots of people who think that they better actually believe that transwomen are female because to not to is to be.........drum roll..... A Bigot. And being A Bigot is the worst thing in the world. Much worse than being subjugated, controlled and exploited.

Note that there is no equivalent of "TERF" used for men.

Strange times.

Standing ovation, Smashing Turnips.

"Cis" is hate speech and cult speak. I am a gender atheist. I refuse to drink the Koolaid.

Gender nonconforming males are not entitled to redefine womanhood for female born women and girls.

I think Mumsnet should allow people to apply the pronouns they wish to trans people, and should also allow those who want to, to use the prefix 'cis', both of themselves and of others. The debate should be free of specific linguistic restrictions.

Observations about gender that I'm just going to put here whether they belong or not:

I ride my bike and usually - several times a week - male car drivers make obscene gestures or shouts to me as I ride along. they aren't doing this because they have seen the gender in my passport or my birth certificate, they are doing it because they identify my shortness and my tits and arse. It’s a knuckle-headed response to the physicality of my person that makes them resent that I dare to take up any space, and express this resentment in terms that are designed to sexually humiliate me.

My emotional response to this is to want to punch them in their disgusting faces. I would like to get each and every one of these vile dolts out of their shiny protective cars and I would like to punch each of them really hard with a proper tai kwondo punch smashed into their faces and hopefully they would fall over when I would kick them in the heads and spit on them while informing them that I am tired of my self and my body being considered to be social property at the disposal of thugs like them. I would invite them to keep their thoughts to themselves in the future.

I do not consider this to be a particularly feminine response and it is an emotional response that I have no intention of acting on.

Secondly: I watched a BBC3 program about sex work in which an experienced brothel madam gave a mini-tutorial to our presenter on how to run a knocking shop. there was a lot of emphasis on tea and biscuits. A cam worker had a very cosy, friendly, charming way of talking to her clients. I was struck by the relaxed appearance of social confidence and almost affection that these successful women displayed. This is truly women’s work. I think men want to be sucked up to more than they want their cocks sucked.

I think Mumsnet should allow people to apply the pronouns they wish to trans people, and should also allow those who want to, to use the prefix 'cis', both of themselves and of others. The debate should be free of specific linguistic restrictions.

Seems like an okay compromise to me.

That, or "cis" is banned except if someone wants to use it for self-description.

I am with misskelly on this.
If trans women are using this term in a negative way, then they need to 'check their privilege'. Having been born and socialised as male, they are still considering it their right to categorise and define women.

All words are just descriptive on their own - it is their intent which gives them real meaning. If cis is being used as an insult or a stick to beat women with (we get enough of that, thank you very much)then I most definitely object and want it deleted by mn.

As an aside, I am fucking sick to death of the sight of Caitlyn Jenner!

Standing ovation, Smashing Turnips.

"Cis" is hate speech and cult speak. I am a gender atheist. I refuse to drink the Koolaid.

Gender nonconforming males are not entitled to redefine womanhood for female born women and girls.

But what if it is a Female to Male trans person using CIS? It's not just Male to Female but that is how it seems to be presented.

We should all dismiss the term.

''Are you cis?''

''You must be cis''

''No I'm a woman'' now do grow up and stop talking bollocks

Smashing turnips, your posts on this thread have really helped me make sense of these issues.

almond, I agree.
Samshing turnips puts things in a way that everyone can understand.

OT, but can i just point out (in case anyone hasn't seen it) there is currentLy a "drop the T" petition circulating, set up by a group of gay men...

www.change.org/p/human-rights-campaign-glaad-lambda-legal-the-advocate-out-magazine-huffpost-gay-voices-drop-the-t

Sorry cis?

cis - Short for "cisgender" (opposite of "transgender"), used to describe someone whose gender identity matches their anatomical gender at birth.

I don't really understand why there needs to be any reference to cis or transgender unless its actually relevant to the context of the conversation?

If someone says they are a woman, then I take that as what they are, without any regard as to whether it was the sex they were born as or not, makes no difference to me which category they fall into.

You learn something new every day! What a pointless term

Now that I know what it means I shall not be using it- or having any reply to it.

I've seen cis woman used on a lot of websites and if the poster is describing someone else it's usually an insult. Just today I read a post and half the comments consisted of So and so needs to stfu, she's just a cis woman who doesn't have a clue what oppression is.

Sure it's a descriptive word but can also be deeply insulting and I think anyone not getting that must be the blonds amongst us.

You see what I did there?

Thank you for saying that about my posts.

And also thank you to all the many women who have helped me work out what I think on this issue. I didn't figure this out by myself but by reading women's discussions (like this one) and blog, books and articles. Which is why it is important that women have (can have!) these discussions - because they are consciousness raising and they allow us to work through things that we are not really supposed to question. Mumsnet is a precious place at the moment because it is becoming increasingly harder to discuss genderism without being cried down in shouts of "TERF/Bigot/transphobic/hater/gatekeeper/privileged".

This may have been linked to already but just in case it hasn't, I highly recommend it. It puts everything in one place in a very accessible way. thenewbacklash.blogspot.fr/

The quote on the home page is very relevant to this discussion about the use of the word cis in sexual politics.

Language has its political uses and obscure language is always helpful to those with power. Orwell named this in his novels 1984 and Animal Farm, referring to the need to confuse others either by applying contradictory terminology or by using terms that are so vague as to be rendered meaningless. Politicians and bureaucrats revel in obscurantism and one of the powerful challenges to this is sheer clarity of language. Obscurantism leads to political passivity and social fatalism. Feminists need always to be awake to such strategies and the use of clear, context specific and direct language is the first step in truly transforming society.

Cis? It's not even short for anything, doesn't relate to sex or gender or anything. Just a stupid made up word

Probably already addressed (not RTFT) but it's not made up. "Cis" means "next to/from the same side", while "trans" means "from a distance/via an intermediary".

It's used in biology a lot, to indicate whether biological agents act in a cis fashion (as part of very localised system) or a trans fashion (via a different set/system). Have you heard of a transgene? That's a gene in one species that's come from another species. Well, the opposite is a cisgene (a gene naturally occurring in the species).

And "cis" and/or "trans" is heavily used in chemistry to indicate the "shape" of various molecules.

If you don't like being referred to a cis, report it. MNHQ have said that they will delete it.

I doubt many of you will be doing much reporting though, because as far as I have seen the only people mentioning 'cis' are those against it.

Cis and trans isomerism.
Imagine the chlorine is masculine/xy and the hydrogen feminine/xx.
If they are both on th same side of the c=c double bond (so masculine and xy or feminine and xx) that is a cis isomer. Opposite sides (xx/masculine and vice versa) would be a trans isomer.

I am none of these, as i dont believe masculine/feminine is a quantifiable, actual thing.

If someone has transitioned from male to female and wished to be referred to by female pronouns I will happily respect that, same if they have transitioned female to male then male pronouns. If they are non-binary/androygenous (sp) and want Mx/they/their etc again, I will respect it and do so. I draw the line at having cis foisted upon me, why should I change the descriptor of my gender? I haven't changed, I was born female, I am female, I am happy being female (although I'd like equal pay, no glass ceiling, an end to FGM plus many other inequalities righted/changed).

Why does a section of society making positive changes for themselves mean that another section have to have things foisted upon them? Especially as my being female changes nothing for them whatsoever. I was born in the right body for me (although I could do with losing some weight), I get that they feel they were born/trapped in the wrong one and respect it, can they please do the same for me and all those happy with their gender without branding us.

SmashingTurnips you are fab, and so much more coherent than me :)

Much love for Smashing.