to think Mumsnet should delete posts in which women are called cis

[violetsarentblue]

I (and I imagine quite a lot of women on here) are fed up with being referred to as cis. I find the term deeply insulting.
I'm a woman and prefer to be addressed as a 'woman', not a cis woman.

I noticed MN are quick to delete posts where transgender people are called 'he' instead of 'she', because that group of people find the term insulting and MN don't want to offend.

Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes.

Please - could we have the same depth of consideration for our wishes?

Thank you.

DISCLAIMER. I don't hate trans people. I don't want them to die, I don't want them to face discrimination. I want them to live happy lives. I will call someone he or she if that's what they like.

I wasn't assigned female, I AM female, (before anyone brings it up,intersex is different) society pushed a gender on me, I'd quite like not to have that gender pushed on me but that doesn't seem to matter, it happens anyway, it didn't me stop being sexually assaulted, it doesn't stop me being groped and cat called, no matter what my internal identity is, society will treat me based on my biological sex, and while I know I'm a woman, I'm not ok with how women are treat around the world, because they were born with a vagina. Sticking the label Cis on women and telling them the above is Cis privelage is insulting.

I've seen Cis used a lot, and other than threads on MN where people say they don't mind, it's used as a slur in a similar way to TERF and usually followed by the word scum. It's used to shut up discussions surrounding female biology, because discussing anything to do with female biology gets you branded TERF scum, rape threats, being told to suck "girl dick" to die in a fire, to get cancer, the list goes on. I wish I was exaggerating and while I know it's the minority, it's the ones with the loudest voice who are amking the changes, and those changes are happening fast.

I am worried it's now transphobic (and an act of violence according to many)to talk about vaginas, menstration, abortion, rape, pregnancy, FGM, because such discussions exclude TW and TW should be included. So hiw the fuck do women meet to talk about things that affect them, not because of their gender identity but because of their biology, if any mention of female biology is transphobic and an act of violence? Then there's those nasty CIS lesbians who don't want to have sex with a penis, horrible nasty TERF CIS SCUM. These attitudes come from the minority, but it's a loud minority.

I read a woman last night ask women to make room for TW in discussions on feminism, that it's possible we can still include TW and talk about vaginas being a central source of some females oppression. That woman was pounced on and told to shut up with her transphobia. Because not all women have vaginas in transphobic to talk about them. TW are killed everyday because of transphobic cis privileged women like her. Miranda,Aoife and a few other TW offered support to her as she ended up feeling guilty for being Transphobic. Her talking about a vagina doesn't kill TW ffs.

TRanswomen face discrimination, hatred and abuse. That's wrong and shit. Women do also, that's also wrong and shit, ones needs shouldn't trump the others and both groups should be able to organise and talk seperatley To identify those needs, without the cis scum, no plat forming stuff being thrown around imo.

Sorry that got a bit long.

Exactly how many trans people (sorry if offensive term!) are there anyway?

It seems bizarre to have to have an extra label for over 3 billion people (eg women in the world) just so that a busloadful aren't upset.

We're the boring, tragic olds with some kind of traditional ladygender nobody wants anymore with all the exciting genders around

seriously is there some weird parallel universe with a host of trans MPs , CEO's and presidents ruling the world? And excluding all of us with our lovely "I was born with it" vaginas!

this is getting actually laughable

last time I looked transwomen were getting spat at and called names, and getting abused pretty frequently. Would you want to be a mid transition tarns woman getting on the bus with a group if 15 year of lairy teens? Nah me neither. That's the reality for many.

NOT RULING THE FUCKING COUNTRY!!!!!

Excellent posts, SmashingTurnips. I too am glad this is being discussed.

Also, there's TW, like Miranda Yardley who say they are male as it's not possible to change sex, that the penis is a male organ, and don't buy into the gender stuff and understand why Cis is offensive so don't use it, they also get the same "suck girl dick" "kill yourself" abusive comments as women do, but somehow Miranda is the violent one.

Or, to reframe, 'Stopfucking* -

^last time I looked women were getting spat at and called names, and getting abused pretty frequently. Would you want to be a woman getting on the bus with a group if 15 year of lairy teens? Nah me neither. That's the reality for many.

NOT RULING THE FUCKING COUNTRY!!!!!^

Unlike women, of course....

we have more women rulers that trans rulers- but I am sure you will debate this

and in England in 2015 I feel fairly safe to walk the streets without fear of abuse, and do so every day. Sure you will debate this too

anyway why is it even a competition?

As I have said on every single flipping thread on this topic (are we up to 5 now?) lets agree to disagree

stopfuckingshouting then you're only seeing one part of the picture then, aren't you?
Are we supposed to ignore lesbians being marginalised, death/rape threats on twitter, removal of women's private spaces, etc etc, because some transwomen are being abused on buses by lairy teenagers. Which incidentally, doesn't just happen to trandsgendered people. It also can happen to women, muslims, elderly people, disabled people, etc.
It's absolutely fine to support people who are being threatened with violence, marginalised and bullied but don't pretend that is all what transactivism is about, because it isn't. And nor are transgendered individuals the only group of people that are victimised either, because they aren't.

Pocket, men "who try to grimly cling onto their male privilege'

Do you mean the person who insisted their birth name was put on the golf membership as Bruce Jenner (I presume their sex for 65 years was also put down, if they didn't even put Caitlyn down) to give them privileged entry. They did say they wanted to 'delay' all that locker room stuff. And they got an award for bravery. For completely transforming themselves into a woman.

Jenner is the ultra brave new world of trans woman. Even won an award for bravery, if you don't mind. Well, I guess they did knuckle down and do the hard thing choosing a dress. Or undergoing cosmetic surgery, which is beyond the ability of a man. Or continue with television shows about themselves, but this time had a script which created big publicity. More money for me is totally brave. And now it seems to me they are not even bothering to publicly pretend they are a woman when it suits. I guess the spin has been spun.

And of course by that notion of labelling you could also say cis black cis woman. Or trans black trans woman? Of course you could be a trans black trans woman who was once a cis white cis man. Or to really increase your privilege in life in certain quarters, you could be a trans white trans man. (or just a trans man no matter where you are from). That would surely get you entry into all the men only golf clubs. Why didn't they just do that in South Africa during apartheid? Oh, you identify as white, and a man to boot; that puts a completely different complexion on how we will treat you under our apartheid laws.

Although colour or 'race' is not a definition like sex. Colour just fluidly mixes. It is just colour. Women are female, irrespective of colour. Men are male irrespective of colour. I'm not talking any biological issues that arise, which are anomalies.

But *Sally, You can be a great many mixtures of colour which give you a particular phenotype expression. White grannies not evident. Or black grandad not evident. It is evident to me that many people who are calling themselves 'transwomen' are men. And they are males genetically too. Look at Jenner on the clip, the one in the show as a transwoman. And that is before you know that 80% of these people are fully functioning adult males sexually. Not even a cosmetic change there. And do function as what they are. Cis seems to mean what you are and trans what you say you are (even if you are not). Even if you do the thing you always did as a man.

Oh and I don't 'identify' as a woman. I'm just me. I was female at birth, so the english language called an adult female a woman. I don't identify as anything so I can play at a stereotype. And in doing so get people to have to pretend day is night. Legally at that. But I guess I'm not a man and used to my bullsh**t being hailed as the revelation of an oracle.

last time I looked transwomen were getting spat at and called names, and getting abused pretty frequently. Would you want to be a mid transition tarns woman getting on the bus with a group if 15 year of lairy teens? Nah me neither. That's the reality for many.

It's also the reality for many women too.

It's shit, it's wrong. Nobody should be treat like that.

Thank you Smashing for your contributions - a big Yes to everything you've written. I only began reading some of these recent threads themed on transgender issues because my kids had FB-passed-round the petition supportive of Tara Hudson: I'm pretty sure they had no idea what they were signing up to at the time - they are webby, politically-minded young adults seeking to be supportive but not aware at all of the minefield in this issue.

I'm female, and just me. "Feeling like a woman" - what on earth does that mean?

The internets says "siss" but I pronounce "cis" as "kiss" because that's how it is pronounced in Latin - but I hope to rarely ever use it out loud.

MN's stance seems very sensible to me. Cis shouldn't be directed at a poster who's said she doesn't want to be called cis, just like a poster shouldn't be called "he" if the poster identifies as a she.

A blanket ban on the word would be ridiculous.

Lol, Caitlyn Jenner could be the transactivists (of the violent predatory type) worst nightmare.
Once one lie is exposed more follow.

dontcallmecis I'll post what I like within talk guidelines.

Thanks all the same.

This thread is mad and also very sad. Basically, people are inventing more and more labels and categories to encourage more and more separation in society. Great move.

This thread is mad and also very sad. Basically, people are inventing more and more labels and categories to encourage more and more separation in society. Great move.

'Cis' is not an insult, nor has it ever been. It's just as someone on the first page said - a descriptive alternative to avoid using the word 'normal woman', because it implies 'trans women' are abnormal. Which is really fucking insulting if you are trans.

If you're whining about this I'm giving you the serious side eye - you need to do some reading.

To those saying that it's a non-issue, never happens in real life - I was told just the other day that I had "blatant cis privilege".

I pointed out that I am "agender" as gender is a social construct designed to restrict people and doesn't actually exist.

I was told that is "yet more cis privilege" and I am a TERF who is silencing transgender people and my opinions are oppressive and disgusting.

Great cross post.

jorah where were you told that?

It's just as someone on the first page said - a descriptive alternative to avoid using the word 'normal woman', because it implies 'trans women' are abnormal

'Trans woman' doesn't imply they are 'abnormal', it implies they have transitioned, and it acknowledges that what they wish to transition to is a woman. We don't need to say 'normal woman', we just need to say 'woman'. Transwomen - fine and dandy, but don't ask the rest of us to change what we're called and what we are so you don't have to feel like there's anything remotely different about you!

pandarific done plenty of reading, thanks .

From earlier in the thread:

"^We're the boring, tragic olds with some kind of traditional ladygender nobody wants anymore with all the exciting genders around.

But someone has to do the caring work. Someone has to do the low paid, socially useful jobs. Someone has to do the reproductive labour. Who's that someone? Cis women, of course, the group who always does it. But just now they're also stuffy old bigots who don't know how to be women really well.

Who knows how to be women really well? People socialised as male, of course.^

This. It deserves repeating. Why women aren't a bit more outraged by it all really flabberghasts me. It is not a "widdle" issue. Again, I want to remind you, Transwomen have made more advances on their "rights" in Ireland in two or three years than hoards of women campaigning for equality over several decades. This is why we should worry."

Bloody hell. You know what, yes, you're all right. DAMN THOSE TRANSWOMEN. TAKING ALL THE FEMINISMS FOR THEMSELVES.

And the rights are in quote marks. Ew.

I am not bothered what anyone calls me, mainly because I really don't give a shit what people call me whether they do it as an insult or not.
I am a woman but if other people want to call me a cis it has no effect on me either way. It is all just shite.

noeffingidea don't be silly, women who disagree with the concept of 'cis' can't possibly have done any reading, or even - gasp - formed their own opinion on something! How lucky we are to be pointed in the right direction.

"I suppose the question is: who decides that cis means "socially constructed femininity", rather than "comfortable identifying with the sex assigned at birth"?"

Sorry, this question was asked a while ago but I was away from the thread.

The answer is: the trans lobby has decided this. It flows from the trans lobby's insistence that sex (as opposed to gender) does not matter or is irrelevant to anything. What we are left with is only gender. In current trans lobby orthodoxy we have the following:

• male and female as biologically determined cannot be talked about and it is actually hateful to talk about them, or to mean things to do with them when you talk about men and women, because you will be exluding transpeople if that is what you have in mind when you talk about "men" or "women";

• Men and women are defined as such according to their sense of gender identity, not their sex or the physical make up of their bodies, whether sex organs or chromosomes

• therefore cis means that your gender identity matches the sex assigned your body at birth. To be a woman is all about gender identity and one's physical make up is ^absolutely incidental". To suggest otherwise is transphobic.

I can't help thinking that it would be very difficult to believe any of this if you have spent 4 or 5 years without more than 4 hours sleep in a row due to pregnancy and breastfeeding. It is not easy to believe this if you are permanently disabled due to the maiming of one's pelvis by SPD and inadequate treatment of it. The hilariously, trivially incidental matter of one's womb starts to look a little less incidental when you are privileged (yes I happily use this word here) to reach down to your vagina and feel a little fuzzy head emerging from it, and then watch a human being swim through bloody water towards you, and you are the first person to hold this person in your arms, and a tiny brand new mouth reaches for your breast, and life-giving food flows from it.