WIBU to ask MNers who think Trans Women are 'Chicks With Dicks' to ...

[KKCupCakes]

Take a look at this article about supporting families of Transgender people by the Gires.org.uk Website to see why that view is so utterly incorrect and harmful?
www.gires.org.uk/assets/supporting-families.pdf

Now that the politically correct thing to do is to value what a person thinks about themselves over what they actually are, should we also just bury people who think they are dead six feet under?

Can I just say I was finding this thread very enlightening with the discussion of the issues but am increasingly uncomfortable with the personal comments being made about a young person, whether people agree with their actions or not. It is possible to discuss the issues without personal comments. Sorry if I sound a bit po-faced, just wanted to say this.

Title IX is going to be turned upside down and inside out if transgirls are allowed to play on girls' teams. I think this is the line in the sand that will cause an earthquake in the end.

Did an earthquake not happen becuase this was community college ? as in are 4 year colleges where the most competitive athletes go and would there have been a different reaction there ?

(see pic- Mission college women's basketball team, 2012 ish)

Aside from the obvious difference there is one more difference between one player and the rest of the team. The rules state you can only play in the league for 2 years. That applies to all team members in the picture... bar one.

However, there were concerns that her previous time as a college player might be a problem. Back in 1980, then-Robert Ludwig played for Nassau Community College and the bylaws of the Community College Athletic Association only permit a player to participate for two years. But the athletic association decided to reinstate Ludwig’s full eligibility, based on the fact that he was now legally a “she” and deserved the full two years of permitted playing time with her new gender.

Thirded. I understand where the vitriol comes from - and I am not happy at all about the ruling on allowing a male-bodied person access to a female-only communal changing space - but there is no need to pick individual people apart on the internet. After all - whether Lila is male, female or a bloody squirrel, clearly what they are first and foremost is a 15-year old child who is not going to benefit from online bullying from adults (which is what criticising their clothing and talking about their dick is).

This is what Title IX says:

www.justice.gov/crt/title-ix-education-amendments-1972

No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from [educational opportunities]

Note the word 'sex'.

"clearly what they are first and foremost is a 15-year old child who is not going to benefit from online bullying from adults (which is what criticising their clothing and talking about their dick is)."

No, Lila is first-and-foremost, in fact, 17 going on 18.

Lila's dick is central to the issue at her school. I make no apology for my reference to it or my comment in that post.

What I said about her shoes was bitchy.

Sorry, this thread has moved pretty fast, I thought I read in a linked article about her that she was 15. And clearly the fact that Lila has a penis is central to the issue. Still no need to sneer about her enjoying a skirt swishing against her dick - that comes across as pretty juvenile offensive language to me, and conjecture to boot, unless you have a quote from Lila to back it up. It doesn't add anything to the rational argument against her being permitted access to a female-only space.

ShowYourVeracity, the outward self presentation as female is an important part of the identity of transgirls, and having your appearance ripped apart is part of the everyday experience of girls, so I suspect that criticism of his appearance would actually be music to his ears. Actually that is the only reason why I would refrain from doing it.

I do think it is fair to remark that he seems to have taken his inspiration for his look from stick thin catwalk models. He looks like an art director wishes to pass off on the general public as 'female' while the girls have opted for more of a realistic female look and perhaps their female biology has played its part in laying down fat deposits where girls usually have them in their teen years. I suspect it would be more of an insult to Lila to have this unassailable fact pointed out to him than bitching about his clothing.

...looks like what an art director...

I think people over think this subject. We should all be respectful of other people regardless of who they are.

I think people have up to now grossly under-thought this subject. People have made all sorts of assumptions about what women and girls should be willing to suck up in the name of 'progress'. I also think trans women should be far more respectful of women and girls than they are, by a factor of about 1000.

He is a trans person. He is in no shape or form, a woman

Bus of course we should be respectful. Respect does not equal someone with the body of a boy being allowed to force their nakedness on naked unwilling girls.

That basketball thing...has the world gone mad? Seriously?

Yes, exposing your genitals to people who don't want to see them is indecent exposure, which is a sexual offence; punishable by 2 years in prison I think

Non-consesual voyeurism is also a sexual offence

Changing rooms are SEX SEGREGATED..that is, according to BIOLOGICAL SEX

they are NOT segregated according to gender and never have been. Because that would be dangerous and nonsensical

It is not complicated or 'tricky". It is very very straight forward

If I'm honest, I'm finding it hard not to feel hostile to Lila. Especially after seeing the picture of them doing that horrible thing of fingers in a V with tongue out between them.
Here is an almost-18 year old young man, insisting on exposing themselves to 14 year old girls and seeing them naked.
If it wasn't for the transsexual issue muddying the waters, we'd be able to call that exactly what it is.

There are not very many trans girls. Most don't play sport. The few that do could surely just use the disabled loo. Is it really such a big issue?

I agree that it's not OK to pick apart Lila. I don't doubt that Lila is struggling and needs a lot of support and empathy. I just think that putting Lila in the girls' changing room while teenage girls are naked is not an appropriate expression of that support.

So let's move on from Lila and ask how the woman who lost her place to Gabriela felt? If I understood this article correctly Gabriela was of interest to the College tram coach for the simple reason that Gabriela was 6 foot 6. They weren't even a college student at the time they asked for a place on the team.

espn.go.com/espnw/athletes-life/article/10170842/espnw-gabrielle-ludwig-52-year-old-transgender-women-college-basketball-player-enjoying-best-year-life

Team coach, not tram coach.

I think people over think this subject. We should all be respectful of other people regardless of who they are.

That is so wooly though. As this thread (and any of the myriad others) has demonstrated there are loads of situations where being "respectful" of a person's right to be considered a woman and do everything that women when they have a penis directly impacts on women's rights not to have to share a cell with them, not to be exposed to them at a rape crisis centre, not to have their teenage daughters share a changing room with them, not to lose their place on a sports team because the other person is physically stronger due to their male sex etc etc etc...

Obviously they should be treated with dignity and kindness but saying people are "overthinking this" when there are lots of potential conflicts between the right of the transgender person to be treated exactly at they want to and the rights of women not to have to share women only spaces with biological males is naive at best.