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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

WIBU to ask MNers who think Trans Women are 'Chicks With Dicks' to ...

847 replies

KKCupCakes · 31/10/2015 21:49

Take a look at this article about supporting families of Transgender people by the Gires.org.uk Website to see why that view is so utterly incorrect and harmful?
www.gires.org.uk/assets/supporting-families.pdf

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
ShortcutButton · 03/11/2015 20:20

I'm really uncomfortable with disseminating this boys photos in this way. How old is he? He's still a child

That said, why ^are there so many photos of him on the internet?? Confused

SlaggyIsland · 03/11/2015 20:25

Shortcut from his Instagram, I believe. I think he's 17.

HermioneWeasley · 03/11/2015 20:26

I hope the girls in this school hit back HARD - all drop out, sue for harassment, bar the entrance to the changing rooms - anything to get their voices heard

ShowYourVeracity · 03/11/2015 20:26

I've been thinking a lot about this thread and some of the excellent analysis on it. I think that definitions are key. Here is my thinking on the logic of the trans activists' position.

There are men. There are women. There are transwomen. Also transmen. There is sexism, and there is, for argument's sake and without defining it, transphobia.

Transwomen say that they feel like women, think like women and therefore are women.

There are the interests of women (such as fighting sexism and improving our situation in society), and there is what it means to be a woman. There are the interests of transwomen and there is what it means to be a transwoman.

If transwomen are women, these should perhaps largely, be the same.

So who defines what is in the interests of women (including transwomen) and what it means to be a woman?

Well it seems clear from many instances (none more clearly than the Lila Perry situation) that the interests of women and transwomen are not always the same.

If women try to define what is in their interests and what it means to be a woman and transwomen agree, then all is fine and these definitions are accepted. However, if transwomen do not agree, then transwomen accuse women of transphobia.

On the other hand, if transwomen give a definition of what is means to be a woman, or is in womens interests and women disagree, again the women are called transphobic and told that their view is wrong.

So in the end who can define what it is to be a woman? - transwomen.

I wonder if this is the logic which is being used at the moment. I don't know if it is and I don't know where this gets us - I am just trying to understand what is going.

ShowYourVeracity · 03/11/2015 20:30

....going on.

CheerfulYank · 03/11/2015 20:36

That seems to be it in a nutshell. Veracity.

SoftDriftedSnow · 03/11/2015 20:38

Transactivitists (or even transwomen non activists) pretty much never define what it is to be a woman though, apart from in reference to themselves or men. It's either "I hate my cock" or "I feel like a woman, so I am".

I'm kinda done with being outraged at the shite that Transactivitists come out with. It's their allies that I'm most irritated at these days (Hi, OP!). Especially the women.

But I am hugely heartened that every thread like this creates at least one more feminist who gets that liberation is more important than equality just now. And, regardless of the trans thing, that has been sorely needed in the past 20 years.

mathanxiety · 03/11/2015 20:39

TalkingintheDark Tue 03-Nov-15 16:07:08 -- that is what I had in mind wrt narcisstic rage.

RickRoll, the next stage is calling trans on women violence 'violence by woman against women'.

Hedgehogs, I have been called 'he' and assumed to be a man even here when expressing views stridently or forcefully or without using phrases such as 'I feel', 'it seems to me', etc. Usually by posters who I know to be men.

MagickPants · 03/11/2015 21:00

I don't like the idea of everybody analysing some kid's photos and deciding if they "pass" well enough, and if not, "I feel sick" at the thought etc. That's not fair.

But this is why there need to be simpler legal barriers drawn than emotionally aesthetically driven ones that can't help but be perceived as cruel judgements upon a person.

I would have been gutted if I had been weighed, or visually analysed, in order to have my eligibility to something determined. Oh no, right, that happened all the time.

Actually I feel gutted more than half my life at how I look and how I fail in gender terms. I hate the way that people's disquiet is feeding into expressions of physical loathing for this kid. But I also hate the thought of girls not having freedom from constant sexual pressure. I'm not suggesting that this kid is abusive or anything when I say sexual pressure. I just mean someone who is making such a song and dance of their hair all the time is just ... well I don't know maybe american society is like that anyway, I guess high school movies make it look like that. Sometimes I just want to say: why don't you all stop wiggling your arse and being gorgeous and have a laugh or play hockey?

.... but I guess I'm gender non conforming

I now see that I should have demanded the gender nonspecific changing room so that I didn't have to be oppressed by people flicking their perms at me and having nicer legs

CoteDAzur · 03/11/2015 21:13

What is "fair" about any of this?

Is it fair for so many teenage girls to be legally forced to undress in front of a post-puberty male?

MagickPants · 03/11/2015 21:39

no of course not, but not because of their looks

I am really boggled about this. Some of the people I trusted most seem to be on another planet from me with this

HermioneWeasley · 03/11/2015 21:46

If Lila didn't want people to have a reaction, perhaps she should t have gone in front of the media with her dick clearly swinging behind her miniskirt. She's 17 not 7 - she should have learned about underwear by now.

mathanxiety · 03/11/2015 21:46

High school movies naturally make it appear that all the girls do is look a certain way (i.e. available and with vacuous minds), swish their hair around and wiggle their cute little arses. Movies are made by men for men, so of course they do not portray the reality of life for girls in high schools after Title IX, just as movies in other genres do not portray actual women, just how ideal women might look.

Softball.

Softball.

Lacrosse.

Basketball.

Water polo.

Track.

Soccer.

Field hockey.

Ice hockey.

You hardly ever see girls playing sport in the usual (stupid) teen and high school movies. But this is what the lives of many, many girls revolves around, fully supported by their families.

MagickPants · 03/11/2015 21:49

Wow. Great images thank you math. All the sadder if girls are discouraged from doing these things because they aren't comfortable changing :(

Garlick · 03/11/2015 22:01

What fantastic images, math! Wish those had been around while I was at school.

RufusTheReindeer · 03/11/2015 22:07

rickroll

Wish i hadn't looked at your link

MagickPants · 03/11/2015 22:08

Yep. Thanks again, Math.

I

mathanxiety · 03/11/2015 22:11

Title IX is going to be turned upside down and inside out if transgirls are allowed to play on girls' teams. I think this is the line in the sand that will cause an earthquake in the end.

There are many, many families that devote their whole lives to the cause of their daughters' sports. To get onto a high school team a girl has to have been participating on a sport at a very competitive level (travel teams, individual coaching) from an early age. I cannot see the kind of families who can afford that sort of commitment responding positively to being told that a fully functioning teenage boy has pipped their daughter for a spot on the soccer team. I can actually see outright uproar over this because no amount of coaching or hard work is going to match the advantage that testes confer.

Allegations of 'trans panic' and ignorance and closed mindedness and 'it could never happen'. Plus appeals to sentimentality and use of the cuteness and moral leadership of little children.

We are being silenced and pushed aside. Girls are going to be spectators again when it comes to sports. We are already expected to be the transwomen's cheerleaders.

LunchpackOfNotreDame · 03/11/2015 22:13

What's annoying me is that trans people don't seem to want to be treated equally, they want to be treated separately and as something special. If transwomen wanted to be treated like women they'd shut up about trans rights and be vocal about women's rights

HairyLittleCarrot · 03/11/2015 22:15

mathanxiety, I believe the TG student that today's ruling applied to has already been allowed on the girls' teams.

mathanxiety · 03/11/2015 22:18

That girl was able to secure herself a scholarship to university via softball. Very popular in school and a great student leader. The photos represent the reality of what American high school girls look like, and their sharp attitude and focus. They come in all shapes and sizes. It is a huge pity that this is not what is shown at the movies. It is also a huge pity that the dreams of these girls could easily be cast aside, and that their incredibly hard work could come to nothing.

mathanxiety · 03/11/2015 22:19

Roll on the earthquake so, HairyLittleCarrot.

Garlick · 03/11/2015 22:20

It did rather meanly cross my mind that any one of these girls, never mind three, could knock the blighter out without missing a breath ... but they probably have respect for other people's bodies.

We all had our eyes off the ball when 'transvestite' went out of polite usage, didn't we? Now you're transgender if you so much as say you are.

Whereas young Lila, clearly, is a transvestite who likes the feel of her skirt swishing across her dick.

WIBU to ask MNers who think Trans Women are 'Chicks With Dicks' to ...
LunchpackOfNotreDame · 03/11/2015 22:24

That picture makes me laugh. All teenage girls seem to wear at the moment is skinny jeans. Everywhere you look, skinny jeans. But Lila is in the most awful unfashionable skirt imaginable. Surely her friends will have taken him/her shopping and helped out on the fashion front? Or told him/her being female doesn't mean you can only wear hideous skirts?

Garlick · 03/11/2015 22:25

It was the shoes that got me Grin The others are wearing workaday, flat shoes. Our Lila teeters on heels.
The twit.