to think if you have a penis, you do not belong in a woman's prison

[RickRoll]

There is to be an appeal tomorrow, at Bristol Crown Court, regarding the decision to send violent criminal Tara Hudson, who works as a transsexual prostitute (still has a penis, as 80% of transsexuals do), to male prison. Tara wants to go to a female prison.

AIBU to think that if you have a penis, you should go to male prison?

People are arguing that Tara is at risk of sexual assault, but Tara is not unique in this - lots of (non transgender) men are vulnerable, and the prison service has a responsibility to protect them.

I understand that peak trains means you previously supported fans issues but don't now but where on earth / who on earth came up with expressions peak trains which is unintelligible without explanation?

I'm sorry, you'll have to educate yourselves. I'm hiding this thread, it's too upsetting.

Trans
Not trains

I am lost i dont know what peak trans is ?

I am shocked at the number of people here who think trans people are their original gender. Or that if they're convicted they should somehow be further punished by having to revert to a gender they left behind.

Sex is physical; gender is psychological. Time to get used to it. The world is fucking changing.

Shame on you!

But we have single-sex prisons, single-sex toilets, single-sex schools, and so on.

Nothing to do with gender.

jax there is a school of thought (based on a study of tws, but the author was hounded with the usual death threats etc and I think lost his academic post for being a transphobic bigot etc etc) that there are two types of tws - people who transition early from fairly androgynous teen boys to fairly androgynous teen girls, and men who transition later in life who are autogynaephiliacs. Basically they have a sexual fetish about themselves as the object of their desire (hence the hyper feminine appearance) but they keep their dicks so they can have a lovely wank about how gorgeous they are now. Think Bruce /caitlyn jenner

Sex is physical. Prison segregation is based on sex not gender.

Why should someone's psychological state affect other people's dignity and safety?

"I'm sorry, you'll have to educate yourselves. I'm hiding this thread, it's too upsetting."

Oh, for fucks sake.

gate last time I checked essential biology wasn't changing

One person's rights do not trump everyone else's. It's that simple.

Gatewalker - woman's has said they should revert to their original gender? People have just said that segregation in prison is based on sex, not gender.

Single cell, female prison. My opinion comes from my indirect experience.

I worked with a woman, a service user, who was a long-term alcohol and substance user. She was also homeless. She still had male parts, because of her substance use she had not been able to fully transition. She identified in every other way a woman. Her cycle was this - she lived in a male hostel, would be bullied by other men, retaliate violently, end up in a male prison, be bullied there, by discharged to a male hostel... bullied, violence, male prison again... with little opportunity to escape from the cycle of incarceration, drugs and depression...

I'm not saying she wasn't responsible for her actions, she was, but the vicious circle made it impossible for her to recover.

She would, in my professional opinion, have been no risk to women in a female prison. She was however particularly vulnerable in the male prison system and male hostels.

"am shocked at the number of people here who think trans people are their original gender. Or that if they're convicted they should somehow be further punished by having to revert to a gender they left behind."

Should an inmate of a woman's prison be forced to share a cell with Tara?

Basically they have a sexual fetish about themselves as the object of their desire (hence the hyper feminine appearance) but they keep their dicks so they can have a lovely wank about how gorgeous they are now. Think Bruce /caitlyn jenner

Now that's a picture I don't want in my head tonight!

One day, I have a feeling we'll look back and see this kind of argument as the same argument we gave for why women were supposdely lesser, why black people were not equal to white. (And we're still fighting those battles today.)

Those of you shaking your heads in incredulity may just join the ranks of those men and white people who did the same thing not so long ago ...

But they havent left it behind have they? They have chosen to be both and use it when it suits them. Im a woman today and a man tomorrow, which is fine. But people that choose this way still have to understand society will accept them if they accept society and work within that too.

Bertrand, if I were in prison, I would have no problem sharing a cell with Tara.

if it has a penis it goes to a prison with the other penises if it has a vulva it goes to prison with the other vulvas

if your that trans get it taken off then you get to go to the right prison

i firmly believe that if she was post op if she had gone all the way she should be in the woman's but she isn't she has a fully functioning penis and they don't belong in a women's prison

this is becoming more of a problem we are seriously going to have to build special prisons

or people could just stop committing crimes?

Having a penis is not how gender is defined, you know. I think she probably gets more say in what her gender is than an unrelated bigot on the internet.

Has anyone reiterated the basic stuff here? That we need to be clear about the distinction between sex and gender

Sex is the biological physiology of your body, determined mostly by the sex-related chromosomes. No surgery in the world yet can change that. So Tara Hudson's sex is male, and will be forever. That's why she is a "transwoman" but not a woman. This is what Germaine Greer says, which apparently was so terrible. She and every biologist in the world ... obviously all of them are promoting transphobia

Gender is the social construction of identity according to ideas about "masculinity" and "femininity". These have tended to be rather oppressive (for both men and women).

At the moment, our society seems stuck in very binary views of what constitutes male and female via gender roles.

The things cited as part of Tara Hudson's working identity suggest hers a very blurred and commodified identity: set up to appeal to heterosexual men who like to have sex with men, but are so homophobic, they prefer that the man they have sex with looks and identifies as a woman. That's not the "norm" of the mtf transwomen I know & work with, who are in most respects perfectly ordinary & normal, just getting on with family life.

I tend to think that a lot of agitation about transgender is actually a product of a) male homophobia, and b) current hypermasculine/hyperfeminine binary gender roles. If we got rid of the oppressive social construction of gender, and let people look and wear whatever they liked, without saying "Oh he wears a dress, he must really be a woman" or "She wears checked flannel shirts & short hair; she's really a man" a lot of people could just get on with their lives

But regardless of her performance of a weird & nastily parodic version of femininity, she's using a hypermasculinised approach to the world in terms of her tendency to serious violence - a far more "masculine" behaviour than it is "feminine". I wonder how they would keep female prisoners safe from violent assault and/or sexual assault?

As I've said before, I don't care what "gender Identity" someone has. I care what their biological sex is.

pinot - I'm not sure you really appreciate how it is to change in a world that judges you to the extent that you've just done.

OP, YANBU.

The female prisoners have a right to safety and dignity too.

Gatewalker Should an inmate at the women's prison be forced to share a cell with Tara?