to think if you have a penis, you do not belong in a woman's prison

[RickRoll]

There is to be an appeal tomorrow, at Bristol Crown Court, regarding the decision to send violent criminal Tara Hudson, who works as a transsexual prostitute (still has a penis, as 80% of transsexuals do), to male prison. Tara wants to go to a female prison.

AIBU to think that if you have a penis, you should go to male prison?

People are arguing that Tara is at risk of sexual assault, but Tara is not unique in this - lots of (non transgender) men are vulnerable, and the prison service has a responsibility to protect them.

Oh yes, blame women again, we must of course fall into line and do everything required of us by those born with a Y chromosome.

cupcake I hope you have not buggered off.
I want to ask a hopefully sensible question.
If your wife happened to find herself sent to prison. Would you and or she be happy if she was put in a cell with Tara, just because they are both transwomen, and that would make life simple. Or would you be quite worried that your wife was at unacceptable risk and not all transwomen are the same.

Yanbu. Thin end of the wedge for women. Is there a petition to object to 7 inch penises in women's prisons?

I hope the tg community can support Tara in finding somewhere safe without trampling over the rights and needs of women.

"The only difference is that due to an incorrect hormone flush in the womb they have the incorrectly designated i.e. male body."

It's the other way around. The body of the fetus was XY male at conception - i.e. before the 'incorrect hormone flush in the womb'. If the 'hormone flush' is responsible for trans feelings, that is because they caused a problem in the brain not in the penis and testes, which grew according to the correct genetic blueprint of that XY male fetus.

Where does the "incorrect hormone flush" come from? It can't be from the gestational unit, who doesn't have a Y chromosome. So it can only come from the XY gamete who inherited the Y chromosome from the ejaculation unit.

I'm unsure, KKC, what point you're trying to make.

Trans - peaked here as well -

I think KK is trying to talk about studies that show studies 1/3 of baby boys born to women who were exposed to an oestrogenic drug during pregnancy turned out to be transwomen.

Which seems to show that the oestrogenic drug changed something in the brain of the fetus to skew its perception of the body.

Is that a peer-reviewed or self-published?

Why do people assume that only women with penises present a danger in a woman's prison? There are plenty of very violent women to be found there. If other prisoners deserve to be protected from this woman by preventing her from going into their prison, why not from the others?

I've been following this thread since the beginning and I've read every post.

The discussion is not confined to the particular question of whether one specific person should be sent to a male or female prison. Quite rightly, the discussion ranges across debates about definitions of sex and gender and understandings of identity categories. But it's clear to me that there's a vocal majority whose definitions are accepted, whereas when other people question those definitions they get jumped on. If I say it's all about the penis, maybe I won't get jumped on. Makes me want to go and read Freud again .

I haven't seen that there's really much discussion to be had in this thread, so I won't be answering any questions that ask me to clarify my thoughts. Very few people have been listened to when they respond to those questions. So in my view it isn't really a discussion and I will simply present my perspective, as many others have. And, just to be extra unreasonable, I won't do it in my own words.

My perspective is summed up in this quote from Judith Butler:
'We should all have greater freedoms to define and pursue our lives without pathologization, de-realization, harassment, threats of violence, violence, and criminalization.'

Plus, I'm still unconvinced that a penis means anything at all.

GruntledOne, in an inherently violent environment like a prison, people are segregated by sex.

Not by gender.

This is just common sense, surely?

Cotes - thanks for the link. That might possibly be what KKC is referring to. I have read studies of the effect of oestrogen being released into the environment and the subsequent feminisation of males of various species. I hadn't made a link between a possible oestrogen hormone flush and Hudson's violence.

Do you reckon the women in the prison would have a case to raise at the echr?

gruntled yes there are violent women, fewer thsn men. I don't accept that Tara is a woman , and even fully transitioned TW retain their greater strength, so no I don't think they should be imprisoned with women.

adjustable if you don't think a penis in what should be a safe space for women means anything at all, I can only assume you've never been on the receiving end of violence from one. Which is lovely for you, but do you really have so little empathy that you can't see why it would be an issue for a lot of women?

What do you think Butler meant by derealisation?

aeon.co/magazine/psychology/can-identity-be-chosen-or-must-it-be-inborn/

Colleagues super gluing razor blades under car door handles the first day of transitioning, school friends setting fire to, beating up, and 'branding' with cigarettes newly transitioned girls and boys, new transitioned women and men being chased, beaten and disfigured by people they previously called friends. All for the despicable reason of being true to the person they know themselves to be. I know it is hard to understand, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Too many women I know (including me) understand this type of violence all too well, having either been subjected to it or having witnessed it happening to their mothers (often from their fathers). Lots of women in prison are victims of this type of violence, as well as being offenders (though often of nonviolent crimes).

But not to worry - they are only women, so don't matter.

Agree Annie - it's like the list of "cis privileges" - women do understand violence. We are raised in fear of it and taught how to avoid it and if it does happen it must have been our fault in some way.

It is interesting. When the list of violent, disgusting attacks suffered by trans people are given, the missing information us the origin of such attacks. I am if the firm opinion that this is because we don't like to name male violence as a society and because leaving it neutral suggests that women are potentially committing these criminal acts and need to protect trans people from the violence. If the problem is named as male violence, the conclusion that women are responsible for ameliorating it becomes slightly more difficult to arrive at.

abbie spot on

De realisation would be subjective I think, depending on your/Butlers starting point.

It obviously means something to adjustable or they wouldn't have posted it, but without clarification it's not really helpful and is a non contribution imo.

I would bet a considerable amount of money that not a single one of those attacks was by a gender critical feminist...

I still can't help being amused that among the cis privileges is the ability to buy shoes in your size.

Anyway. What would happen to the discussion if we agreed that there may be circumstances where it would be appropriate for a person with a penis to be detained in a women's prison, but that it is not appropriate for a person with a penis that she uses regularly for sex, and which she enjoys surprising people with to be detained in a woman's prison?

I still can't help being amused that among the cis privileges is the ability to buy shoes in your size.

I have to go to the men's dept in the shoeshop if I want trainers that aren't pink or purple. Somehow I survive this horrible, horrible misgendering.

And when i recently bought a fleece i went to the men's section to avoid the pastel colours. I often buy men's trainers due to the wider fit and more neutral colours. Getting them small enough can be tricky though.