to think if you have a penis, you do not belong in a woman's prison

[RickRoll]

There is to be an appeal tomorrow, at Bristol Crown Court, regarding the decision to send violent criminal Tara Hudson, who works as a transsexual prostitute (still has a penis, as 80% of transsexuals do), to male prison. Tara wants to go to a female prison.

AIBU to think that if you have a penis, you should go to male prison?

People are arguing that Tara is at risk of sexual assault, but Tara is not unique in this - lots of (non transgender) men are vulnerable, and the prison service has a responsibility to protect them.

"Too many times the comment has been that a woman's rights outweigh a tw's rights and I don't think that is right. ( by that I mean that too many people seem to think that a tw should forgo visiting a specialist centre because it was "women" that fought for it and not TW's."

That isn't what people have been saying.

Repeatedly, they have said that to treat people equally, you can't always treat them the same, and to force one group onto another to their possible detriment is not right. There is a difference between equal and the same.

Take a look at that picture someone linked above, of the children standing on boxes. The first picture showed them being treated the same, the second picture showed them being treated equally.

And like it or not, there are and always will be differences between women and trans-women, so it's not unreasonable to say that they want, need and deserve different services in order to be treated equally.

You cannot shoehorn people into a one size fits all solution under the banner of equality because it doesn't work, someone will suffer.

Women are explaining why they feel it is wrong to give a violent trans-women with a fully functioning penis, a trans-woman who has attacked a man so badly he needed medical help and expensive dental treatment, the choice to be locked up in prison with vulnerable women, the majority of whom will most likely be significantly physically weaker than Tara.

Women are explaining why they wouldn't want to share space in a rape crisis centre with someone who has a fully functioning penis, be that a man who has been raped or a trans-woman who still has a penis. Some of these women may be speaking from personal experience and I although I am sure they still have empathy for those men or trans-women and still want them to receive help, but it's not equality to say all victims must receive the same treatment in the same place. And it may be that the men or trans-women feel the same and would prefer their own safe space.

By insisting that they are all lumped in together, you are the person here putting one group of rights above another, which fails everybody.

There are quite a few women in prison who are tall, violent, with a very strong physique and anger management problems. I haven't seen any petitions for them not to go into women's prisons, yet they present the same or a greater threat than this person.

Gruntled, are you seriously suggesting that - taken as a class - there is no difference between men and women in terms of rates of crime, types of crime and average strength?

If you think as you appear to do here, I presume you support complete desegregation in prison based on gender? And if not, why not?

yet they present the same or a greater threat than this person

Really? Are you serious? Do you know anything about the prison system or the general profile of women v men prisoners?

And on the rape crisis thing (which I think in this thread is a derail, but still):

I am sick of services which have been created, funded and organised by women, often poor and vulnerable women, at great personal cost to those women in terms of money, volunteer energy, etc, being hijacked by those with male privilege, whether they me men or trans women. I am especially sick that once hijacked by those people with male privilege, these services created by women thereby become instantly inaccessible to women. (I would not feel safe sharing a room in a women's shelter with someone who was raised male and who had a penis. Therefore that shelter would be excluding me, as I could not make use of it.)

Men - and trans women who make ample use of there male privilege (I see you, famous trans woman activist who goes to work using your male name and presenting as male, and you aren't the only one. I see you, Caitlin Jenner who applies for a golf membership as "Bruce" because it is easier, despite all the fuss about "deadnaming") - earn more than women. Men as a class do not do the bulk of the childrearing and elder care as well as having to hold down a job. Men have the time and the money to fucking organise and fund their own fucking services, instead of expecting Mummy to look after them, as always.

*their not there

Trans women sure seem to expect (male privilege?) a heck of a lot of support and help from women.

What have trans women (as a class) ever done for women?

What it very interesting to observe here, and also within transgender activism as a whole, is how language is being used to subtly shift the site of various arguments, erasing inconvenient references to biological females.

On this thread, a women's rape crisis centre becomes a "specialist centre", for example.

Well I am impressed with my MP, I emailed earlier expressing my anger at this situation and how women's rights were being sidelined towards Tara and he has replied to me to say he will raise this issue with the MofJ.

I know nothing will change as a result of this but at least I feel like as a woman I am not just rolling over and allowing more of our rights to be taken away.

My concern is that this will set a dangerous precedent, the door now opening everyone who identifies as a woman.

As was explained the feminist chat thread, 1/10 inmates in women's prisons will potentially be born with/have a penis.

Well done, Doingthebedt. I shall follow your example.

FriendofBill, how could 1/10 not be a biological woman? I am having trouble seeing how the number could be so high.

settling the only study that has been done on this showed that TW commit crime at the same rate as men, not women. Given the disparity between male and female crime rates, TW will be a disproportionate percentage of the women's prison population. Their crimes, including violent and sexual crimes, are recorded as having been committed by women, thus skewing the stats.

It just gets worse and worse.

In case anyone missed it, here's that list of privileges that women luxuriate in again.

I don't know whether it was posted on this thread by a woman but I'm pretty confident that it was written by a MTT.

Number 3 strikes me, since only one mainstream journalist - Jeremy Vine - has asked this of Tara. According to her mum, she's a chick with a dick.

Given that she is violent I think what's in her pants in her case is pretty fundamental.

limited from a journalist's point of view, why do you think that the reporting on this case has ignored the prostitute/chick with a dick angle?
It just seems like prime DM fodder so why the silence?

I think it's because everyone is falling over themselves to be seen as open minded and tolerant. No one wants to raise their head above the parapet and be called a terf, or transphobic.

8 convictions and a working penis used in her role as a specialist escort just don't fit the picture of the hard done by trans woman who is oh so pretty and innocent and just trying to live her life in a transphobic world.

Presumably it would be transphobic to even mention her penis,.or her line of work.

That is good news regarding the MP, which party? I may consider something similar.

My local MP is Labour, I have never had cause to contact him before but I am very impressed so far, his actual email reads,

Thanks - I'll contact the MofJ for you - I know that until a final certificate of change is issued no one can change gender -the balance is bullying and safety in a male prison v your concerns which are valid - I can't change this but I'll raise for you anyway
Best wishes

It's a full bingo card vindscreenviper

It rings all the bells - violent offending, sentencing, titillation, women's prisons, deviancy, political correctness gone mad, uppitty feminists, male prisons, the horror of male rape (which is worse than when it happens to women even though it happens to women more than men) waste of public funds, mad judiciary, the Human Rights Act etc...

All newspapers love the chance to be liberal without going into it too deeply. That would be revolting. Especially that bit about it going into too deeply.

It’s easy when you understand that the people in charge of the bingo game are reactionary heterosexual men.

YABVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVU OP I genuinely believe it's people with opinions like yours that lead to over 40%, THAT'S FORTY PERCENT!!! of Transgender people committing suicide. If someone is Transgender they think and feel the same way as any 'born' woman does. The only difference is that due to an incorrect hormone flush in the womb they have the incorrectly designated i.e. male body. Try doing some basic research before you start spouting off shite about something you clearly know jackshit about.

What a well reasoned argument CupCakes I'm sure we are all much better informed now and incredibly grateful

I thought sex was determined by the chromosomes which come from the sperm.

Not hormones flushes.

Men living as women do not think the same as actual women.

So how does any born woman think and feel, Cupcakes?

41% attempt suicide, not complete.
In people with BPD (mainly women, and over represented in prison) is it 70%.
So who is most vulnerable?

Can't speak for the other women on this thread, Cupcakes, but I don't fuck men with my 7-inch dick for a living. that's a pretty unusual interpretation of thinking and feeling like a woman.