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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think if you have a penis, you do not belong in a woman's prison

990 replies

RickRoll · 29/10/2015 19:15

There is to be an appeal tomorrow, at Bristol Crown Court, regarding the decision to send violent criminal Tara Hudson, who works as a transsexual prostitute (still has a penis, as 80% of transsexuals do), to male prison. Tara wants to go to a female prison.

AIBU to think that if you have a penis, you should go to male prison?

People are arguing that Tara is at risk of sexual assault, but Tara is not unique in this - lots of (non transgender) men are vulnerable, and the prison service has a responsibility to protect them.

OP posts:
ArcheryAnnie · 31/10/2015 10:24

which suggests that women are probably in less danger from her than they are from dominant lesbians.

...what? WTF? This is a voilent male with 8 convictions, including one for battery. Even the punter reviews mentioned that if anyone makes the wrong comment, Tara "goes mad". Tara is tall and has a male physique (boobs notwithstanding) and an anger management problem.

Just how many "dominant lesbians" do you think have power in women's prisons, and how many cases of sexual assault are lesbians convicted of each year, as opposed to the huge amount of rapes people with penises commit?

howtorebuild · 31/10/2015 10:27

It's the psychological fear in women, of potential assault and rape, much like the fear Tara couldn't cope with.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 31/10/2015 10:28

'An assumption that trans will rape by virtue of the fact they have a penis'

I don't think anyone is assuming that. Personally, I have several trans friends who I believe still have penises but I don't have the slightest fear of them raping me Hmm
But when the person in question has 8 previous convictions for violence and likes surprising people with the size of their penis I think it's reasonable to be aware there might be a risk if they are housed with vulnerable women.

Thistledew · 31/10/2015 10:32

WTF have lesbians got to do with this debate? Since when did we think that sexual assault has anything to do with sexual attraction, rather than power and dominance?

Someone who has proven that they have a history of violence and aggressive, domineering behaviour is likely to continue in that way, regardless of sexual orientation. Men (on average) are going to be bigger and stronger than women (on average), making the latter more vulnerable to attack by the former, particularly if the former displays behaviours consistent with male socialisation.

ArcheryAnnie · 31/10/2015 10:33

noblegirraffe Tara may have been segregated in the male prison, but there's no guarantee at all that she will continue to be segregated in the women's prison.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 31/10/2015 10:35

And the disturbing statement that trans people are mentally ill and that their actions are not dissimilar to people that deliberately make themselves disabled

Is this wrong?

SlaggyIsland · 31/10/2015 10:37

stopfucking why do you think feeling you are in the wrong body is different to feeling you have too many limbs and want one amputated? Why do you feel it's offensive to draw the parallel?
I used to feel like you do. I had basically absorbed the idea that transsexuals were people trapped in the "wrong" body, and that asserting that a transwoman wasn't actually a woman was hugely offensive, bigoted and wrong.
I then started paying more attention to the subject, in part thanks to some of the threads on here. And felt like my eyes were massively opened. I'd not previously considered the impact on women, and how certain elements were demanding to encroach on women-only spaces to our detriment. And then I realised that the statements which I'd previously taken to be massively offensive, made sense. I understood the anger which had previously baffled me.

WindyMillersProbationOfficer · 31/10/2015 10:39

I wonder if some of the male 'feminists' clamouring to be seen demanding that Tara be moved to a female prison (and, of course, deriding any woman who disagrees as a bigoted terf) would feel quite so strongly if Tara didn't look quite like such a gross parody of femininity?

MaudGonneMad · 31/10/2015 10:43

An assumption that trans will rape by virtue of the fact they have a penis

I don't think that assumption exists. Just like there is no assumption that all men will rape, by virtue of the fact that they have a penis. Rather, the possibility exists by virtue of the fact that they have a penis. Some might reasonably think that that possibility is heightened by a prolonged record of violent behaviour, as in this case.

waitingforcalpoltowork · 31/10/2015 10:44

as far as i could read she was being segregated in the male prison? so does this mean she won't be in the female prison?

BertrandRussell · 31/10/2015 10:45

"
The comparison to lady boys

I think this was made to explain how it is possible to make a penis almost invisible under clothes"
An assumption that trans will rape by virtue of the fact they have a penis
Nobody has made any such assumption. However, it would be a legitimate fear felt by a woman told to share a cell with a transwoman who regularly uses her penis sexually, and who has been charged with violence 8 times.

The assumption that trans men to women are by default patriarchal
Some are. Some aren't. The discourse around transrights, however, often has a misogynist tone. And it it is women who have to "shift along" to accommodate transwomen, whether or not they are comfortable doing it.

And the disturbing statement that trans people are mentally ill and that their actions are not dissimilar to people that deliberately make themselves disabled I have no qualifications to make any comment on this one. Presumably some are, some aren't. Do you know differently?

It is a very complexed and nuanced situation. It is foolish to pretend otherwise.

ShortcutButton · 31/10/2015 10:47

I have never understood why it is perfectly acceptable to consider that the body is 'wrong' (which requires a belief in a soul or 'being' independent of your physical form) but it is outrageous to suggest that your mind is 'wrong'

NettleFarseer · 31/10/2015 10:58

This is a fascinating thread.

I have nothing helpful to addBlush

GruntledOne · 31/10/2015 11:17

...what? WTF? This is a voilent male with 8 convictions, including one for battery. Even the punter reviews mentioned that if anyone makes the wrong comment, Tara "goes mad". Tara is tall and has a male physique (boobs notwithstanding) and an anger management problem.

There are quite a few women in prison who are tall, violent, with a very strong physique and anger management problems. I haven't seen any petitions for them not to go into women's prisons, yet they present the same or a greater threat than this person.

MaudGonneMad · 31/10/2015 11:23

Perhaps because they don't have a penis? Just a thought.

SlaggyIsland · 31/10/2015 11:24

But they are women. Therefore they are in the appropriate place for them, ie a woman's prison.
Why should the fact that men's prison represents a risk to someone, become the problem of women? I don't get it.

BertrandRussell · 31/10/2015 11:33

What it comes down to really is that a woman without a penis should not have to share a cell with a person with a penis.

Original poster
RickRoll · 31/10/2015 11:35

"The interesting thing about that website is that the only review that mentions a penis was in 2012. "

I think it's presumed on a site called 'hung angels'. You would only mention it if it was missing, or otherwise out-of-the-ordinary

OP posts:
Original poster
RickRoll · 31/10/2015 11:39

Also it's worth noting, in the context of my thread title, that as far as the government is concerned, you DON'T need to have your penis removed to become a woman.

There are legally recognised women WITH penises.

That's one issue, but the one here is that Tara is not a legally recognised woman, but still managed to get into female prison.

So the penis is a bit of a red herring, legally, if not in reality.

OP posts:
EElisavetaOfBelsornia · 31/10/2015 11:43

If it's Eastwood Park, there is no segregation facility. There are shared cells, some with no wall round the toilet. It looks like a stately home from the outside but is grim as fuck inside, even if you don't find yourself with Tara as a cell mate.

Original poster
RickRoll · 31/10/2015 11:45

Tara has been sent to Eastwood Park

insidetime.org/hmp-eastwood-park-prison-regime-info/

They do not have a segregation unit

OP posts:
Atenco · 31/10/2015 11:47

There are quite a few women in prison who are tall, violent, with a very strong physique and anger management problems

Again, as someone pointed out above, Men are significantly stronger than women. I am a strong woman, but I still could not defend myself against my relatively weak Ex.

So this man's right to safety trumps a whole prison-load of women's right to safety

abbieanders · 31/10/2015 11:49

So this man's right to safety trumps a whole prison-load of women's right to safety

Yes well, one penis trumps all vaginas.

TheXxed · 31/10/2015 11:50

GruntledOne you really are doing the absolute most, comparing a man with violent convictions to a lesbian. I hope you did a stretch before you attempted that reach.

to think if you have a penis, you do not belong in a woman's prison
iamaboveandBeyond · 31/10/2015 11:57

Theres not,even a segragatin unit at the womens prison she is being sent to? Ffs.