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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think if you have a penis, you do not belong in a woman's prison

990 replies

RickRoll · 29/10/2015 19:15

There is to be an appeal tomorrow, at Bristol Crown Court, regarding the decision to send violent criminal Tara Hudson, who works as a transsexual prostitute (still has a penis, as 80% of transsexuals do), to male prison. Tara wants to go to a female prison.

AIBU to think that if you have a penis, you should go to male prison?

People are arguing that Tara is at risk of sexual assault, but Tara is not unique in this - lots of (non transgender) men are vulnerable, and the prison service has a responsibility to protect them.

OP posts:
murasaki · 31/10/2015 00:22

folding prawns on the bus, is this district 9? Grin

howtorebuild · 31/10/2015 00:23

Prams

SuburbanRhonda · 31/10/2015 00:23

Years ago prawns were folded on the bus.

How I long for those days Grin

howtorebuild · 31/10/2015 00:24

70's, served with lettuce!

howtorebuild · 31/10/2015 00:25

Good old prawn cocktail Grin

Werksallhourz · 31/10/2015 00:26

Are you saying that a post op tw should be denied access to a rape crisis centre if it is all that is available to her?

I do not believe women's rape crisis centres are the appropriate place for transwomen. I do not understand why transwomen would want access to women's rape crisis centres; the support, advice and medical care will be inappropriate for their situation.

I still struggle to get to grips with the idea that it is considered that a tw should be considered as so different to a biological woman. After all, they would have both had a very similar experience.

I have also made it clear that the experience of rape and its implications are very different for biological women than for trans-women. I also supplied various reasons why this is the case.

It is just the fact that one has a surgically created vagina whilst the others is natural.

This statement erases the reality of the sexual reproductive system of a biological female, and is worrying in its naivety. The instance of vaginal rape for a biological female is not an act that solely violates the labia and vagina. It also violates the cervix, which, as it is the lower part of the uterus, is a violation of the uterus itself, the major female reproductive organ.

If the rapist ejaculates into the biological female, this is a further violation of the uterus and, depending on the female's cycle, a violation of her fallopian tubes. If the woman conceives, this is a violation of the ovum she has released, a violation of her right to control her reproductive process, and a violation of her right to choose her reproductive partner.

When a biological female is raped, her entire entire reproductive system is raped. This is not so for transwomen.

pestilence13610 · 31/10/2015 00:28

This rape crisis centre does women, men and transgender, but only 13+ on all counts. Depends where you live to the facilities available.

pestilence13610 · 31/10/2015 00:34

No mention of prawns, I guess they don't live that long.

ArcheryAnnie · 31/10/2015 00:44

I haven't read all 27 pages, but just wanted to jump in to say thank you to RickRoll for starting this thread. I saw the news and was so distraught about what this person being moved to a woman's prison means, and it's good to know I am not alone in this.

The move has nothing to do with Tara's safety - men's prisons are full of men who have to be segregated for various reasons. It has EVERYTHING to do with vulnerable women prisoners' safety, which will have ceased to exist.

I don't often do this, but this has finally tipped me over into writing to my MP. Who can't do anything, of course, but I want it registered somewhere that this is so terrifying and not a victory of any sort.

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 31/10/2015 00:49

I read today that suicide is the biggest killer for men between a certain age range (18 -45)? so despite all their gender privilege - it clearly ain't all that ! Otherwise why are they the largest group with undiagnosed mental health issues

People called the 'we are all humans ' comment trite .

But this thread is so full of hate it's depressing tbh

howtorebuild · 31/10/2015 00:51

It's not the fault of Women, men don't support each other or tend to their health.

howtorebuild · 31/10/2015 00:53

You do know Men get superior health care, trials show a woman and man with the same symptoms get different care, the Man quicker and accurate treatment, Woman are more likely to old it's all in their head.

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 31/10/2015 00:53

Who said it was women's fault ? Not me

Just surprised and taken aback by the this thread

I have two sons and I want to raise them to be the best they can be . And yes 'we are all equal ' comes In to that . The phrase LBGT community was coined and yet reading here ...

Werksallhourz · 31/10/2015 01:03

"The phrase LBGT community was coined and yet reading here ..."

Gay males seeking their civil rights did not seek to erase the rights, realities and lived experiences of biological women and girls. Neither did Lesbians or Bisexual individuals.

nightsky010 · 31/10/2015 02:00

So sorry if this has been said already, (I can't read 28 pages) but aren't there / shouldn't there be transsexual wings in prisons? Or if there's not enough demand in each prison, at least have one prison in the country which can cater for this which someone can elect to go to?

BertrandRussell · 31/10/2015 06:49

I read today that suicide is the biggest killer for men between a certain age range (18 -45)? so despite all their gender privilege - it clearly ain't all that ! Otherwise why are they the largest group with undiagnosed mental health issues

People called the 'we are all humans ' comment trite .

But this thread is so full of hate it's depressing tbh"

The rate of suicide among young men is horrible. But the statistic is not as simple as it looks. Women in the same age range make as many suicide attempts. Men are just, tragically, more successful.

It is ridiculous to say that this thepread is "full of hate". There is ignorance in some cases. Confusion- this is a really difficult subject. Debate, discussion, disagreement. But using words like "hate" when it is not appropriate is really not helpful. It makes it impossible to talk freely and nobody will learn and things will no move forward if we can't talk about it.

HermioneWeasley · 31/10/2015 07:56

stop what have you seen on this thread that you regard as hateful?

tsonlyme · 31/10/2015 08:05

The only hate I've seen on this thread is from people seeking to shut down the discussion with claims of how the very act of discussing it is somehow bigoted. What I see here is many people attempting to unravel a complicated and evolving subject. I don't think a single person here wishes ill will on Tara.

DoingTheBestICan · 31/10/2015 08:26

I am furious with the media, why are they not reporting the full story? I am going to write to my MP about this. Why should the rights of the female prisoners be completely trampled over to accommodate Tara?

Would it not have been best to imprison her in solitary for the remainder of the sentence? Especially with her being so violent. I feel very sorry for the women who will have to share their cell with her. Who gave a thought about the women in this case?

Sorry for all the questions but I am livid.

HermioneWeasley · 31/10/2015 08:37

doing nobody gave a thought to the women. As ever.

And now that a number of us are pointing out the very damaging implications of the doctrine that TW are women and anyone who identifies as a woman is what a woman is, we are shouted down with cries of TERF, accused of being bigots and hateful and silenced with threats of rape, murder and harassment.

Women's needs are always lesser.

BertrandRussell · 31/10/2015 08:41

From now on, I am going to refer to men who identify with the gender they were born with as "cis men".

DoingTheBestICan · 31/10/2015 08:56

I have just wrote to my MP, I know there is nothing he can do about it but I am so angry. I just hope that nothing happens to any women in the prison.

This is very much a knee jerk action and not one single thought was given to the women.

Where are the cries of justice towards the women prisoners? Bloody disgusting!

SmashingTurnips · 31/10/2015 08:58

As ever in these discussions, the elephant in the room is male violence and misogyny.

Women need sex segregated prisons due to male violence and misogyny.

Women need refuges and rape crisis centres due to male violence and misogyny.

Sex as a socio-political category (and not simply a biological/medical one) exits due to male violence and misogyny.

The problem here with Tara and all other trans issues of a similar nature is male violence and misogyny (plus homophobia which is a subset of misogyny).

Blaming women in any way, shape or form is outrageous. Women are not responsible for male violence and misogyny. Nor should our (far from solid) right to safety, dignity and bodily integrity be eroded, questioned or violated as a half assed "solution" to male violence and misogyny. The fact that many people think it should be and shout bigot at women who disagree is testimony to how deeply entrenched male entitlement is, including an institutionalized/systemized right for men to be violent and misogynistic.

Regardless of whether one thinks Tara is male or female, the issue is glaringly one of male violence NOT the existence of female safe spaces or spaces which are female biology centric.

But this is patriarchy so women should STFU, put xy chromosomed humans to the front of the queue and know their place (back of the queue fearing male violence).

DoingTheBestICan · 31/10/2015 09:00

SmashingTurnips I wish there was a like button.

pestilence13610 · 31/10/2015 09:02

I am beginning to feel sorry for the average transwoman.
Who is not violent and does not earn a living from their penis, Tara is hardly an ambassador.
It is like saying a certain Ms Cunningham is an ambassador for feminism.

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