Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think if you have a penis, you do not belong in a woman's prison

990 replies

RickRoll · 29/10/2015 19:15

There is to be an appeal tomorrow, at Bristol Crown Court, regarding the decision to send violent criminal Tara Hudson, who works as a transsexual prostitute (still has a penis, as 80% of transsexuals do), to male prison. Tara wants to go to a female prison.

AIBU to think that if you have a penis, you should go to male prison?

People are arguing that Tara is at risk of sexual assault, but Tara is not unique in this - lots of (non transgender) men are vulnerable, and the prison service has a responsibility to protect them.

OP posts:
Hygge · 30/10/2015 22:55

I've been reading this thread all day and can't recall a single post where anybody has said that they consider some people to be better than others.

People should be treated equally, but equally does not always mean the same.

Tara can have all the operations she likes, but there will still be differences between her as a trans-woman and women. We can argue all we like about what those difference mean or don't mean to us, but they will still be there and as has already been mentioned, in places like rape crisis centres and prisons, those differences matter a lot.

All prisoners have the right to be safe in the space they are incarcerated in. That's equality. That doesn't mean that the best and only solution for keeping everybody safe in this case was to put Tara in a women's prison. Because ensuring one prisoners safety at the possible expense of many others is not equality.

There is talk of pre-op and post-op, but which op are we really talking about when we say that? Tara isn't going to hurt anybody with her breast op, but she could cause significant damage in a women's prison with her fully functioning penis.

There has also been talk of segregation to keep certain prisoners safe from others. This could have been just as easily achieved by segregating Tara in the prison she was first sent to. She apparently wrote to her mother to say she was ok in that prison, and with this highly publicised case I have no doubt she would have continued to be ok.

Tara is a violent person with several convictions, apparently making a living as a sex worker because she still has a fully working penis.

Her mother was quoted as saying that Tara changed her plea to guilty in the belief that she would receive an electronic tag and a referral to an alcohol abuse course.

Instead she has been incarcerated and the cynic in me wonders if this appeal was really to force the issue of the prison service not knowing quite where to put her in the hope of her being released with the tag and referral she had expected to receive.

I bear her no ill will. I wouldn't want her to be harmed in prison. Equally I wouldn't want her to harm anybody else, something she sadly has other convictions for.

Segregation seems the best option to protect both Tara from the other inmates and the other inmates from Tara. All prisons should be able to do this successfully regardless of the sex, gender (or anything else) of the inmates they house.

If that segregation could not have been done in the original prison Tara was sent to then we need to be discussing the issue of why not and how best we can change that, for the wellbeing of all prisoners. Because that's equality.

pestilence13610 · 30/10/2015 22:55

I would think a raped post op trans woman would need access to her own very specialised center, and I hope at least one exists.

tsonlyme · 30/10/2015 22:57

Firstly I want to say thank you to all the people posting on this thread, I can't tell you how gratifying it is to see so many intelligent women grappling with this evolving subject.

My stance in a nutshell is that Tara shouldn't be in a women's prison because her rights shouldn't trump the rights of the many (incarcerated women).

Interestingly (to me) is that I've discussed this topic with a few people today, I'm local to the men's prison she was in, not that it matters particularly. The differing opinions struck me, my colleague who is 50yrs agreed with me that Tara shouldn't be in a women's prison, her highly intelligent daughter (18yrs) who is at the early stages of a vocal feminist journey thought Tara should be moved. My own 18yr old daughter, also vocally feminist, started off being highly defensive of Tara's right to be in a women's prison but after listening to me seemed to move to a slightly different stance closer to my own view.

We all thought that Horfield Prison was not the right place for her.

Is youthful acceptance playing a part here do you think?

There is a local Bristol character that just about anyone who was out & about in the 80s/90's/naughties in Bristol will know, Sapphire. Sapphire is a gay, cross dressing, flamboyant, black man, Sapphire is currently in Horfield Prison I believe. Tara would not have been alone in difference.

I'm very disappointed by the prison service's decision today.

EElisavetaOfBelsornia · 30/10/2015 23:03

Ahem. I think I just did the 'I'm a woman, now listen!' thing referred to above. Rather liberating.

pestilence13610 · 30/10/2015 23:05

or was it "i'm a woman now, listen"?

EElisavetaOfBelsornia · 30/10/2015 23:08
Grin
HamaTime · 30/10/2015 23:08

8 of the players on Iran's women's football team are pre op trans women

It's homophobia: it is more acceptable for a man to "become" a woman, and have sex with men, than for a man to have sex with men

Obviously the thread has moved on massively, but I'm not sure why the women who have lost a place on their national football team should give any fucks that they have lost out due to homophobia, or it's cousin, misogyny.
Either way, gay men identifying as trans, or trans men identifying as women, the result is women getting screwed over.

ForChina · 30/10/2015 23:10

Respectfully, StopFSAM what part of being a sex worker that fucks men with a 7 inch "surprise" involves living as a woman

This, with bells on!!

I'm fucking fuming, the BBC report on this has just completely misrepresented this. I want to scream!

Yep - the news tonight, the headline was 'Common sense has prevailed at last'. HOW. FUCKING. DARE THEY. Really, it's common sense to put a serial violent offending male who has a fully functioning penis in with a prison full of women?! So his/her rights completely trump those of all of the women?!?

It actually makes me feel so far from being supportive of trans people and that's sad as generally I don't care what gender you want to live as or change into.

pestilence13610 · 30/10/2015 23:15

Today feels like a step back for trans rights.

Werksallhourz · 30/10/2015 23:24

I would think a raped post op trans woman would need access to her own very specialised center, and I hope at least one exists.

Indeed. As should rape crisis support exist for gay men and lesbian women, and anyone across the gender and sexuality spectrum. Whether this will ever happen is a separate question, because it is a question of organising and agitating for such services to exist, which is not necessarily the work of biological women who do not identify as trans. We have our own shit to deal with.

It is important that we recognise that biological sex matters. It should not be totally erased by notions of "gender".

To add to what tsonlyme said ... I have a suspicion that a lot of young women do not fully understand the implications of certain transgender issues because they simply have not lived long enough as adult females to realise the full extent of the lived biological female experience, and how desperately they may need those women-only spaces one day.

I suspect it will not be until many of these young women reach their 30s and 40s that they realise what has actually happened to them because they are female. They are, at present, in a sense, intoxicated by their own sense of empowerment; they do not realise that, over time, as you live life as a female, that empowerment has a tendency to drip away, unnoticed, until there is very little left.

2rebecca · 30/10/2015 23:40

I have submitted a complaint to the BBC about this. There are some occasions when a transexuals genitals aren't important. In this occasion when they were considering moving Tara to a femal prison , and femal prisons are usually full of vulnerable women many with mental health issues the fact that Tara had a penis and worked as a prostitute penetrating people with the penis is very relevant to where Tara is placed.
The coy "one more operation" stuff was inappropriate. The BBC should have been asking whether or not female prisoners would be safe from an aggressive person with a penis.

Tapirs · 30/10/2015 23:46

Just watched the coverage. Disingenuous shite.

Ohbehave1 · 30/10/2015 23:47

Wekzallhours. Are you saying that a post op tw should be denied access to a rape crisis centre if it is all that is available to her? I still struggle to get to grips with the idea that it is considered that a tw should be considered as so different to a biological woman. After all, they would have. Both had a very similar experience. It is just the fact that one has a surgically created vagina whilst the others is natural.

Ohbehave1 · 30/10/2015 23:52

Tsionlyme.

There is a local Bristol character that just about anyone who was out & about in the 80s/90's/naughties in Bristol will know, Sapphire. Sapphire is a gay, cross dressing, flamboyant, black man, Sapphire is currently in Horfield Prison I believe. Tara would not have been alone in difference.

Do you not think that the big difference is that Tara identifies as a w Oman whilst sapphire is a gay man.

I do also wonder if the problem would have been seen as so big if Tara was post op. Out of interest has it been ascertained if Tara actually was full grs or is that it now?

murasaki · 30/10/2015 23:54

I think if she was post op, then a woman's prison would be the right place.

And if thought too violent, segregated as any other woman would be

pestilence13610 · 30/10/2015 23:57

ohbehave that surgically created vagina may well be damaged and one would hope the post op transwoman would be sent to a specialist. The journey involved may well be far too far but parents travel to Great Ormand Street for specialised help and a trans woman should have similar rights. I'm sure a local rape crisis center could also arrange gender neutral territory. No one is saying she should go without help.

Ohbehave1 · 31/10/2015 00:04

Pestilence. That is by far the most constructive comment. Too many times the comment has been that a woman's rights outweigh a tw's rights and I don't think that is right. ( by that I mean that too many people seem to think that a tw should forgo visiting a specialist centre because it was "women" that fought for it and not TW's.

FriendofBill · 31/10/2015 00:12

Too many people think trans woman should forgo visiting a specialist centre.

Do you have any evidence for that?

abbieanders · 31/10/2015 00:12

You refer to rape crisis centres like they're just an automatic fact of life. They aren't. They were created by women for women in response to a specific form of abuse against women, and as such, have developed techniques and understandings that apply to the specific case of women being raped in the context in which women live. Part of this is having penis free zones. This might not suit everyone, but those who aren't suited are more than welcome to do their own work and create their own spaces to cater for their own needs.

Women are not there to mind everyone.

pestilence13610 · 31/10/2015 00:13

It might well be a different specialist center though

pestilence13610 · 31/10/2015 00:17

I guess a post op trans woman may get referred back to their original counselors, surgeons. Don't suppose there is the vastest pool to choose from.

tsonlyme · 31/10/2015 00:20

Werks you're right that time erodes our empowerment. As a young woman I was all about the equal rights and would shout from the rooftops about it to much derision by many peers both m & f but didn't see how my being a woman disadvantaged me because I was young and carefree. It wasn't until I had a child and found myself in a traditional mothering role whilst my husband went out to work that it struck me.

It was when I read The Women's Room that my mind was blown, how women with such strong ideas of their equality are so easily eroded by child bearing. Depressing stuff, and I don't think it's changed much in the last 20yrs which is a huge shame.

howtorebuild · 31/10/2015 00:21

It's like a pram disabled bus thread.

Years ago prawns were folded on the bus. Disabled people fought long and hard for space on the bus, then prawns took the space, preventing disabled people from accessing the bus.

pestilence13610 · 31/10/2015 00:22

ohbehave are you up for the mission of setting up a rape crisis centre for post op trans women?