Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think if you have a penis, you do not belong in a woman's prison

990 replies

RickRoll · 29/10/2015 19:15

There is to be an appeal tomorrow, at Bristol Crown Court, regarding the decision to send violent criminal Tara Hudson, who works as a transsexual prostitute (still has a penis, as 80% of transsexuals do), to male prison. Tara wants to go to a female prison.

AIBU to think that if you have a penis, you should go to male prison?

People are arguing that Tara is at risk of sexual assault, but Tara is not unique in this - lots of (non transgender) men are vulnerable, and the prison service has a responsibility to protect them.

OP posts:
PurpleDaisies · 30/10/2015 22:29

Tara's mother was asked straight out if Tara had a penis on the Jeremy Vine show. She confirmed that Tara does.

MaudGonneMad · 30/10/2015 22:31

I didn't report OhBehave's abusive post, for what it's worth. It rather shows her up.

MajesticWhine · 30/10/2015 22:31

I agree MorrisZapp. It was very unbalanced - good old right on BBC. As if the idea of putting someone who is legally a man and still possesses a penis, into a male prison, is somehow bonkers.

Ohbehave1 · 30/10/2015 22:31

Ok ok. I apologies for the fucking arse comment.

Werksallhourz · 30/10/2015 22:31

So you are saying that it is not bigoted if you consider some people better than others......

No. Because no-one said they considered some people better than others. You attempted to force that interpretation upon another comment, and your interpretations had no grounds.

You are also attempting to do the same with my comment. There is no evidence in what I said to suggest that I do not consider it bigoted if someone considers some people better than others. I simply pointed out that you had used the term "bigot" because you had disagreed with someone.

Indeed, as the word bigot means someone who is intolerant of differing views, I would suggest your application of the term is misplaced.

EElisavetaOfBelsornia · 30/10/2015 22:32
Ohbehave1 · 30/10/2015 22:33

Maudegonemad Thanks. Apologies. Too much Wineand quite a strength of feeling on the matter.

Ohbehave1 · 30/10/2015 22:35

Werk. I used the term bigot because I feel that that person thinks that some people are more deserving or better than others. I think it is you that are misinterpreting what I am saying.

howtorebuild · 30/10/2015 22:35

Youth offenders, yes helpful.

FriendofBill · 30/10/2015 22:35

Hi five Eelizaveta -what a brilliant analogy!

Really!

BertrandRussell · 30/10/2015 22:36

The fact that Tara has a penis is not necessarily the crucial thing here. Pre op male transsexuals have always lived as women- in fact they used to be obliged to do so for several years before they could be considered for surgery. I don't know whether transwomen have to do that now or not.

The fact that Tara has a penis which she likes to use to have sex with, and which she describes as her "seven inch surprise" is the issue here.

HermioneWeasley · 30/10/2015 22:36

EElisaveta I thought it was very good.

Everyone on this thread seems to understand what "different" means, except behave. If she doesn't accept it now I suggest that no further debate will move that issue forward.

pestilence13610 · 30/10/2015 22:38

noblegiraffe most of us indeed do not go about asking, do you have a penis, how big is it, do you penetrate people with it?
Most trans women have penises, the help with peeing and the op is a major one. Most trans women do not spend their live penetrating people with their penises.
Tara is a little different.

SleepyForest · 30/10/2015 22:41

This story has made me realise that I think that transwoman are men with health issues. I would not discriminate against them, I am always polite and friendly towards the ones I meet, but I do not view them as women.

SettlinginNicely · 30/10/2015 22:42

Yes, for me, the penis is the bottom line on this one. I think the general public and the vast majority who signed the petition assume she no longer has one.

I understand that it has been positioned as rude to ask or discuss what a trams woman has in her pants. Generally speaking, I would agree with that, but in this situation I think it is germain.

BedTimeNow · 30/10/2015 22:42

sorry to just jump in the debate but if any one doesn't mind answering for me, what's the difference between a Transsexual and a Transwomen?

Ohbehave1 · 30/10/2015 22:43

Hermione. I just can't accept that someone that has always identified as a woman, who has had to undergo hours of counselling and years of living as a woman whilst physically being a man and then undergoes drug therapy and radical surgery to become a woman should be treated as anything other than a man.

Ohbehave1 · 30/10/2015 22:43

Oops. Meant treated as anything other than a woman.

noblegiraffe · 30/10/2015 22:47

I don't agree, Bertrand, I think the penis is a fairly crucial detail. If it wasn't, why is it being played down/avoided being mentioned so much? Why do people come on here assuming she doesn't have one when apparently most trans women do?

I have read a lot of discussions where people have been surprised to find out that penis removal is not required, nor even desired by many trans women. Most people seem to think the 'born in the wrong body' thing means that you want top and bottom surgery. The Louis Theroux programme which showed people mix and matching was an eye-opener, tbh.

BertrandRussell · 30/10/2015 22:49

"noblegiraffe most of us indeed do not go about asking, do you have a penis, how big is it, do you penetrate people with it?"

No. But most people don't go round telling everyone that they have a penis, how big it is and that they penetrate people with it, either.

Tara does.

pestilence13610 · 30/10/2015 22:49

Ohbehave most of the time they are going to be treated like a woman. However, doctors will treat them a little differently because they need it to be treated fairly. And YES females do want to exclude them from a minority of female only spaces, because females have needs also.

CoteDAzur · 30/10/2015 22:50

"I just can't accept that someone that has always identified as a woman, who has had to undergo hours of counselling and years of living as a woman whilst physically being a man and then undergoes drug therapy and radical surgery to become a woman should be treated as anything other than a woman."

On which planet does "living as a woman" involve fucking men in the arse with your very own 7-inch cock? Hmm

What Tara "feels like" or the hours of counselling Tara may have had are completely irrelevant. Imho they don't seem to have worked very well, in any case.

There are people who believe they are animals born into the wrong body. Should they be placed in zoos when they commit a crime? Let's get a grip on reality here.

SettlinginNicely · 30/10/2015 22:51

I'd agree with you Ohbehave on that one.

What alarms me is people born male deciding they are women and wanting to access safe female spaces without the counselling, the hormones, or the surgery.

Werksallhourz · 30/10/2015 22:51

Behave ... that is not what the word "bigot" means.

And I fail to see how biological females' access to women's rape crisis centres is a matter of privilege -- because that is what you are essentially arguing.

You are saying that biological women are privileged because they can access women's rape crisis centres whereas transwomen cannot.

Posters are stating that the reason why transwomen should not access women's rape crisis centres is because those rape crisis centres have been set up on the basis of the needs of biological females who have been raped.

You refuse to accept this, and claim that the needs of raped biological females are the same as the needs of transwomen.

I have disagreed with you. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that women's rape crisis centres are not appropriate for transwomen because they specialise in dealing with the consequences of rape for biological females. Transwomen will have different needs and requirements that require people who understand the physical and psychological situation of raped transwomen.

To be blunt, it does raped post-op transwomen no good to be reviewed by a medical professional that does not understand the structure of GRS and how it presents or what the implications of damage may be.

WandaFuca · 30/10/2015 22:54

EElisaveta - this thread is very fast moving, but I did notice your analogy and though it was a good one. Another analogy would be the phasing out of mixed-sex wards in NHS hospitals on the grounds of dignity.

I like Werks posts - they've helped me understand why I feel so very angry about this situation. I'm an old woman, in that I'm a woman who's experienced all the disadvantages of being a woman for a very long time. I'm not likely to be a sexual target. But if I were to find myself in a hospital bed, and the patient next to me was a 5'10" person, with all the musculature from a testosterone puberty, and with a fully functioning penis, I would question why that person's self-identification was more important than my dignity.