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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think if you have a penis, you do not belong in a woman's prison

990 replies

RickRoll · 29/10/2015 19:15

There is to be an appeal tomorrow, at Bristol Crown Court, regarding the decision to send violent criminal Tara Hudson, who works as a transsexual prostitute (still has a penis, as 80% of transsexuals do), to male prison. Tara wants to go to a female prison.

AIBU to think that if you have a penis, you should go to male prison?

People are arguing that Tara is at risk of sexual assault, but Tara is not unique in this - lots of (non transgender) men are vulnerable, and the prison service has a responsibility to protect them.

OP posts:
Ohbehave1 · 30/10/2015 22:17

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2rebecca · 30/10/2015 22:17

I agree that there is genotypical sex, which is chromosomes and phenotypical sex ie what you look like.
Tara is genotypically male and has a phenotypically male bottom half and female top half.
Any more than that is just wishful thinking and "but I think like a girlie with floaty feminine thoughts" sexist nonsense.

pestilence13610 · 30/10/2015 22:18

Surely it is past the watershed and they can mention penises now

SuburbanRhonda · 30/10/2015 22:18

And on the BBc news at 10 the reporter said she had "one more operation" to go. They didn't say anything about her still having a penis.

I just can't believe the media are glossing over this and leaving out such a critical piece of information about the case.

LibrariesGaveUsP0wer · 30/10/2015 22:19

Ohbehave - it has been explained by a number of posters why it is trite.it isn't about people not being equal. It's about "We're all just equal" being an irrelevant nonsense when we already consider sex an important enough different to divide people by.

CoteDAzur · 30/10/2015 22:19

"you obviously will consider a TW less important than a biological one."

Again: This is not about importance or worth. This is about difference.

Transwomen are not the same as women, because they are male. Boob jobs, facial surgery, even GRS cannot change the fact that their sex is male - i.e. the sex that can produce sperm and impregnate females. Women are female - i.e. the sex that can produce ova and bear offspring.

As I said before, you need to understand the difference between sex and gender before you can make a meaningful contribution to these debates.

Ohbehave1 · 30/10/2015 22:19

Noble giraffe. If a person is Pre op you have to consider the fact that they are still a functioning ale or female. Hence my view that pre ops need to be treated with care and respect but may have to be treated differently.

Werksallhourz · 30/10/2015 22:20

They still have to suffer for an accident of nature that gave then a Y Chromosome rather than an X.

This is the type of response I would expect from a trans-activist in its sullen expression of pointed resistance. I am sorry, but it doesn't work. You are speaking to biological women that have had to "suffer for the accident of nature" that gave them two X chromosomes, rather than one Y.

pestilence13610 · 30/10/2015 22:20

That "one more operation" is going to put her out of a job

Ohbehave1 · 30/10/2015 22:21

Libraries. If the person is post op there is NO dick.

MaudGonneMad · 30/10/2015 22:21

What a shame you aren't capable of a discussion about serious issues relating to women's rights without resorting to personal attacks, OhBehave.

Still, par for the course. Women usually get vile abuse from transactivists when they try to defend their rights.

LibrariesGaveUsP0wer · 30/10/2015 22:22

Jesus ohbehave. Of all the posts of mine that you've ignored, you decide to take that out of context and respond. Really? Really?

SuburbanRhonda · 30/10/2015 22:22

ohbehave I've reported your post.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/10/2015 22:23

It's like the Rachael Dolzal case. She was born white (a biological skin colour) but she chosen to define herself as black (race, a social construct), as she identified as a black person.
This is in no way different to a biological male identifying as a female. Yet I seem to recall she was pretty vilified for it, and I don't remember lots of people saying, "of course you should be able to identify as whatever race you like"

Ohbehave1 · 30/10/2015 22:24

Pestilence- of course men don't need s smear test and women don't need a prostate exam( although trans women will need a pros state exam - not sure how it works with trans men - is a full hysterectomy carried out before male construction is carried out.

What I mean by equal is that none of us are more important than anyone else.

Werksallhourz · 30/10/2015 22:24

If you don't consider all as equal than you as just as bad as any bigoted twat out there.

And here we go ... out comes the "bigot" label.

5 ...4 ... 3 ... 2 ... 1 for the "TERF".

Ohbehave1 · 30/10/2015 22:25

Suburban. What for? Am I not allowed an opinion on this matter.

EElisavetaOfBelsornia · 30/10/2015 22:25

We have youth prisons, right? Not because we are an ageist society, but because the needs of children and adults are fundamentally different. Placing an adult in a YOI would be unacceptable, and if it was someone tall, strong and with several convictions for violence could place young inmates at risk. If people argued against this decision, it wouldn't be because they thought adults were less worthy or important. Do you see?

noblegiraffe · 30/10/2015 22:25

Hasn't there been a lot of coyness in the media about whether Caitlyn Jenner still has a penis too? Like you don't ask a trans person about the state of their genitals, that's rude and intrusive?

So the media are avoiding it here too? As if the penis doesn't make any difference to whether Tara should be allowed in a female prison or not?

Which I think is interesting because I imagine for a lot of people, the penis would be the crucial bottom line.

LibrariesGaveUsP0wer · 30/10/2015 22:26

Ohbehave - you are allowed an opinion. You have been reported for personal abuse, I would guess. Name calling is against the rules.

Ohbehave1 · 30/10/2015 22:27

If you don't consider all as equal than you as just as bad as any bigoted twat out there.

And here we go ... out comes the "bigot" label.

5 ...4 ... 3 ... 2 ... 1 for the "TERF".

So you are saying that it is not bigoted if you consider some people better than others......

CoteDAzur · 30/10/2015 22:27

"What I mean by equal is that none of us are more important than anyone else"

That is your Straw Man. Nobody but you is talking about importance or worth.

What people are saying is that transwomen should have their own spaces and not be forced on to women in safe spaces for females.

MorrisZapp · 30/10/2015 22:28

I thought the news item on the BBC was hopelessly shallow. It gave the impression that a minority group had won a landmark debate on the way to equality. It didn't mention the fact that the prisoner still has a penis and that there may be opposition to her admittance to a women's prison by women themselves.

EElisavetaOfBelsornia · 30/10/2015 22:28

I reported the 'fucking arse' post too - it's a personal attack, which isn't acceptable on MN.

Ohbehave1 · 30/10/2015 22:29

"What I mean by equal is that none of us are more important than anyone else"

That is your Straw Man. Nobody but you is talking about importance or worth.

What people are saying is that transwomen should have their own spaces and not be forced on to women in safe spaces for females.

And what I am saying is tHat I do not consider a TW any less of a woman than a biological one. Or a TM as a biological one for that matter.