to think if you have a penis, you do not belong in a woman's prison

[RickRoll]

There is to be an appeal tomorrow, at Bristol Crown Court, regarding the decision to send violent criminal Tara Hudson, who works as a transsexual prostitute (still has a penis, as 80% of transsexuals do), to male prison. Tara wants to go to a female prison.

AIBU to think that if you have a penis, you should go to male prison?

People are arguing that Tara is at risk of sexual assault, but Tara is not unique in this - lots of (non transgender) men are vulnerable, and the prison service has a responsibility to protect them.

Ohbehave You can't identify as a "sex". Sex is a biological fact that cannot be changed, and is rooted in your chromosomes. You can only choose to identify as another expression of "gender".

Prisons are not segregated on grounds of expressions of gender. This is the flaw in the transgender argument. If prisons were segregated on grounds of gender expression, then there would need to be parameters as to where each gender expression started and stopped. For women, this would mean a fairly conservative view of feminine gender, encompassing behaviour, thought and appearance, a conservative view that many transgender activists support without actually understanding what it is.

The reality is that this expression of feminine gender in practice would preclude a significant number of transgender women from the female prison estate, including Tara Hudson. There is no way that you could argue that penetrating an orifice with your functioning penis is feminine gender behaviour. Nor could you argue that someone who has fathered children through inseminating a biological female with sperm using their penis is feminine gender behaviour.

Indeed, there are a range of behaviours seen from transwomen activists that would preclude them from being identified as "women" under the parameters of feminine gender behaviour.

This is what so many transwomen do not understand about the real restrictions of the "feminine gender". They are subscribing to something that they know very little about in reality. Femininity, as expressed through gender, dictates that "women" do not headbutt barmen, that women are not vocal, aggressive, assertive, that women put others before themselves. By these parameters, Tara Hudson would not be a "woman".

The feminine gender is a whole prescription for existence: the way you act, move, think, behave, respond, appear. It dictates interests, beliefs, hobbies, habits, concerns. Why the hell do you think feminists have been fighting it for so fucking long? Gender is a totalitarian state. Transgender activists have resurrected the monster, and they do not realise how destructive it really is -- for their damn cause.

I knew what you meant

and no some groups should only be for women who were born female as many will have suffered abuse throughout their life and have a real mistrust and fear of men

for women like this and there are many of them it is vital they feel safe otherwise they will not reach out to services that are dedicated to improving their lives and this will have a knock on effect on their family life

that a few trans women may be upset by this well so be it, women have had to fight for years for these spaces nothing is stopping trans women getting together and working together like women have. it is not for desperate and often very vulnerable woman to have to compromise

"What I meant was the group that are post op along with those that are biologically the sex that the trans person identifies as. Does that make more sense."

No, it doesn't because you are still confusing gender and sex.

Repeat after me:

(1) You can't identify as sex.

(2) Sex is male or female.

(3) You can identify as gender.

(4) Gender is man or woman.

Is that clear?

Hermione. I am glad we seem to be less argumentative and more discussive

I get your point, but a tw that has been raped is still in as much need as a biological women who has been. Just because one was born a man shouldn't make them less eligible. Their experience is the same.

No, their experience is not the same. The experience of transwomen is not the same as that of women.

And if raped transwomen need access to services, then they should campaign for them and set them up, the same way women did.

no one is saying their experiences are less painful

what is stopping trans women working together to help each other than working against women to help who ?

it is similar to mens claiming feminists are working against them and they do not get support why not get together with other men and support each other

you do realise that with all the cuts many support groups are closing yet still we have two women a week being murdered by their husband, partner or ex partner

A woman is shorter and has less muscle mass, they also has the issue of pregnancy from rape.

Ohbehave - but why should they get to access a women's only space? No one is denying that such a person needs support. A straight, 'cis gender' man who was raped would too. Why can't some things just be for biological females? It doesn't undermine or deny the need for similar facilities for others.

Cotedazur. You know exactly what I fucking mean. Stop using my poor use of words to try and negate my argument.

This story is on news at 10 bbc 1

Your poor use of words is precisely what negates your argument, Ohbehave. It reflects the shallowness of your argument.

It seems quite clear that some people refuse to accept trans women as women. They still have to suffer for an accident of nature that gave then a Y Chromosome rather than an X.

Their experience is the same.

No, it is not. And saying this suggests a naivety about the rape experience and its consequences for biological women.

For example, a transwoman will not require potential pregnancy or termination counselling or referral for further medical treatment in this regard. A transwoman will not require a cervical smear for potential HPV infection, and possible cervical treatment for the consequences, treatment that may undermine the integrity of her cervix and lead to future problems with pregnancy. A transwoman will not contract an infection or disease that could make her infertile.

It is most definitely not the same experience. The only thing that is similar between the rape experience of a transwoman and a biological woman is being physically overpowered and penetrated against your consent. For a number of biological women, that aspect of rape can only be the start of the nightmare.

"refuse to accept trans women as women"

Transwomen are transwomen.

Women are women.

This is not a George Orwell novel and we are not writing in Newspeak. It is perfectly fine to use words according to their dictionary definitions.

Maudegonemad. There is no shallowness in my argument. Just because I believe that a post op TW and a biological women should be treated equally because they are both women doesn't mean to say they argument is defunct. Just shows that you do not see people being equal. In my mind sex, gender, race, religion or whatever. We are all just human beings.

I don't have a problem with a trans woman living as a woman. I just happen to think that there is a small subset of areas where ignoring their trans status causes such harm or carries such risk of harm to vulnerable women that special rules apply.

Rape crisis centres and prison are amongst those.

Use the ladies loo. Change in the cubicle next to me in Top Shop. Whatever. But women who have just been raped should be allowed a women's space with no dicks.

Cotedazur. Nothing Newsspeak about it. It is clear what you will and will not accept and you obviously will consider a TW less important than a biological one.

"We're all just human beings" . Do you realise what an irrelevant sound bite that is. By that reckoning we don't need women's prison at all.

We are all just human beings and in order to be treated equally we need to be treated a little differently.
DH would not appreciate someone giving him a smear test just so he could be treated equally to me.

we're all just human beings

How trite.

Just because I believe that a post op TW and a biological women should be treated equally

What about a pre-op TW? One with a penis? As apparently 80% of TW (according to OP) are?

I've decided I don't have a gender. I reject the idea completely. I have a biological sex which I can never change.

Which prison should I go to? (once I've committed my hypothetical crime)

(I think the whole gender concept might be getting ready to implode. Which would be a delightful turn of events.)

It's strange the BBC website doesn't mention that although she has had SOME reconstructive surgery Tarastill has a penis, that also wasn't mentioned on the Today programme this morning. It is a vital piece of information about the fact that although Tara maybe partially would like to be female it isn't enough of a desire to have genital surgery.

This seems vaguely relevant: