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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think if you have a penis, you do not belong in a woman's prison

990 replies

RickRoll · 29/10/2015 19:15

There is to be an appeal tomorrow, at Bristol Crown Court, regarding the decision to send violent criminal Tara Hudson, who works as a transsexual prostitute (still has a penis, as 80% of transsexuals do), to male prison. Tara wants to go to a female prison.

AIBU to think that if you have a penis, you should go to male prison?

People are arguing that Tara is at risk of sexual assault, but Tara is not unique in this - lots of (non transgender) men are vulnerable, and the prison service has a responsibility to protect them.

OP posts:
FinglesMcStingles · 30/10/2015 17:55

Nope. In 2015 some people think "woman" and "man" are self-definable genders. Some people think they're biological sex categories. Trans people don't change sex, they change gender. The people who think genitals define sex think gender does not and/or should not relate to biological sex. The people (or at least some of them) insisting sex and gender are the same are refusing to acknowledge biological differences.

HamaTime · 30/10/2015 17:57

Surely in 2015 we aren't still in a situation where people honestly think your gender is entirely defined by your genitals?

Personally I'm disappointed that in 2015 we are still discussing gender as a thing that needs to be defined, rather than a bullshit social construct than conveniently puts women at the bottom of a hierarchy because they are female.

Prisons aren't gender segregated anyway, they are sex segregated and that is defined by your genitals.

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 30/10/2015 17:57

much of this depends on how your view Tara

if you (A) view Tara as a criminal yes, but one who has lived as a woman for her whole adult life, and she has had surgery and drugs towards this goal (bar that oh so important penis, I agree!)

Or you (B) view Tara as someone who is legally male and with a history of assault

I happen to view her as (A)- but I can see that if you perceive her to be (B) yes- she should not go to a female prison . no way jose

pestilence13610 · 30/10/2015 17:59

Well, what does make you a woman then? Surely in 2015 we aren't still in a situation where people honestly think your gender is entirely defined by plastic surgery, make-up and glamour photo shoots?

noblegiraffe · 30/10/2015 18:03

Apparently sex is determined by boobs and blonde hair in 2015.

abbieanders · 30/10/2015 18:05

Surely in 2015 we aren't still in a situation where people honestly think your gender is entirely defined by your genitals?

No, your gender is defined by social hierarchy designed to oppress women because of the genitals they were born with.

pestilence13610 · 30/10/2015 18:05

noblegiraffe fuck, I'm going to get redefined as a man.

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 30/10/2015 18:07

A) view Tara as a criminal yes, but one who has lived as a woman for her whole adult life, and she has had surgery and drugs towards this goal (bar that oh so important penis, I agree!)

Respectfully, StopFSAM what part of being a sex worker that fucks men with a 7 inch "surprise" involves living as a woman?

I think that there are definitely transwomen who live, as far as possible, as women - even if they haven't had full or even partial surgery. I do not believe that Tara is one of them. I would say that, for me, living as a woman would require not deriving sexual satisfaction from fucking someone with your penis.

pestilence13610 · 30/10/2015 18:10

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest agree wholeheartedly.

CharlieSierra · 30/10/2015 18:18

Respectfully, StopFSAM what part of being a sex worker that fucks men with a 7 inch "surprise" involves living as a woman

This, with bells on!!

I'm fucking fuming, the BBC report on this has just completely misrepresented this. I want to scream!

WindyMillersProbationOfficer · 30/10/2015 18:22

Nice to know that living as a woman apparently consists of shopping, swishing your hair, and getting your tits out. Oh, and attacking people in bars. Universal womanhood (unlike having a vagina, which is Problematic.)

Werksallhourz · 30/10/2015 18:28

Blackbirds

What got me thinking about synthetic cross-hormones was a series of fascinating comments by a former trans-woman, now redefined as a man (yes, they do detransition, but keep very quiet about it because of the aggression they can face from the active transgender community) about his experiences taking synthetic estrogen.

He said that taking estrogen gave the world a kind of "dreamy feeling". He found it very disorientating and strange, to the extent that it convinced him to stop taking the hormones and was the initial step to his detransition. When he stopped, he reported that he went back to his "normal" experience of the world, ie. his previous biological male experience, where the world was sharper, keener and more in focus.

This intrigued me because I wondered whether I, as a biological woman with high levels of estrogen (I have a large fibroid to prove it) experienced this "dreamy world" as a matter of course, and I just didn't know it. And if that was true, what did it mean? For me? For other biological women?

As an aside, if taking synthetic estrogen as a biological male gives you a distinctly different experience of the world, then how can you argue you previously had a "female brain" prior to the hormone medication? A female brain, by default, is the "estrogen-brain", ifswim.

So I started looking into the subject, trying to find other biological male reports of "estrogen-brain", and found some rather disturbing accounts from the opposite side: transmen (FtM) talking about synthetic testosterone.

The most alarming was from a trans-man who had taken synthetic testosterone for twelve months yep, only twelve months. Upon stopping, this individual found he had developed acute health problems (constant urinary tract infections due to a lack of bioflora that relies on estrogen support) that are almost always the preserve of post-menopausal women. The testosterone had suppressed his natural estrogen levels to such an extent, it had sent him into a menopausal state aged 23, hot flushes and all -- and there was nothing to suggest the situation would reverse over his lifetime, unless he took synthetic estrogen for the duration, which he was, obviously, loathe to do.

I also came across the stories about former East German female athletes and clandestine hormone treatments, which were pure testosterone, that damaged their health, causing involuntary changes in sexual characteristics, birth defects, heart attacks, cancers, infertility, kidney problems ... this is all documented and known. Cases were being launched against a German pharmaceutical company about this ten years ago.

I also found a number of under-the-radar references about some of the first trans-women to take synthetic estrogen, suggesting that they are now in extremely poor health.

It was then that I started asking just why synthetic cross-hormone therapy was a tool in the gender dysphora toolkit. Why was it being supported by gender identity specialists? By medical professionals? By trans-activists?

Indeed, why is any debate about the risks of synthetic cross-hormones in gender identity cases so virulently shut down by activists? Why is it being supported by positive puff pieces in the fucking Daily Mail, for God's sake?

There is something really not right here. My spider senses aren't just tingling, they are doing the goddamn mambo.

GruntledOne · 30/10/2015 18:28

However, she is a criminal so has to abide by the rules of the prison service.

But the rules of the prison service do provide for this, and she would not be the first trans woman to be placed in a woman's prison. According to the report I heard, they say that a Gender Reassignment Certificate is usually needed; however, that cannot be a hard and fast rule, because not all trans women even know that such certificates exist, and they require things like getting a divorce or revoking a Civil Partnership Agreement which the women in question may not want to do, for good reasons. Therefore the rules recognise that there has to be some flexibility on this, and it appears that that is what is in practice being applied here as she is in a woman's prison.

People who worry about women prisoners being at risk of male violence - you do know, don't you, that there are an awful lot of big, tough, violent women in women's prisons?

QueenLaBeefah · 30/10/2015 18:36

"People who worry about women prisoners being at risk of male violence - you do know, don't you, that there are an awful lot of big, tough, violent women in women's prisons?"

Yes, but they don't have cocks. Tara has one and by her own admission a 7 inch one.

Viviennemary · 30/10/2015 18:37

True. There is a lot less violence in Porridge than Bad Girls. I think I'd feel safer in a man's prison.

murasaki · 30/10/2015 18:38

The Mirror seems to be saying that Tara has been moved to a woman's prison. FFS.

howtorebuild · 30/10/2015 18:38

you do know, don't you, that there are an awful lot of big, tough, violent women in women's prisons?
How many have a seven inch surprise?

StrawberrytallCake · 30/10/2015 18:38

People who worry about women prisoners being at risk of male violence - you do know, don't you, that there are an awful lot of big, tough, violent women in women's prisons?

And your point is? Does that make it ok to stick an extra risk in there?

SuburbanRhonda · 30/10/2015 18:41

Am I being very naïve here because in her photos she doesn't look like she has a penis? Confused

HamaTime · 30/10/2015 18:45

People who worry about women prisoners being at risk of male violence - you do know, don't you, that there are an awful lot of big, tough, violent women in women's prisons?

It would be tricky to stop violent women being sent to women's prisons. The same argument is used in discussions about having men staying overnight on post natal wards. Women can be arseholes, but women are the patients/prisoners so are 'entitled' to be there.

Tara could well be out in 5 weeks, but what do we do when a lifer decides to self identify as a woman? What if a trans woman is convicted of a sexual crime like this transgender youth worker accused of rape of a minor and what about convicted criminals who decide they would rather be in a woman's prison after conviction?

Werksallhourz · 30/10/2015 18:51

Am I being very naïve here because in her photos she doesn't look like she has a penis?

Well, she says she has a 7 inch surprise in her panties, according to her adultwork page.

She also, apparently, "doesn't have any problems getting hard unlike some other ts escorts out there".

So I would suggest she does have a penis. Either that, or it is false advertising.

Interestingly, she doesn't claim she is transgender but transsexual, which I thought was a bit of a different scenario.

HelenaDove · 30/10/2015 18:51

Thats a ridiculous comparison Vivienne Porridge was a comedy and Bad Girls was a far fetched soap/drama.

HamaTime · 30/10/2015 18:57

Also, Porridge was shit and Bad Girls* was the best programme on television, ever, in the history of television.

*Being shown nightly on CBS Action

bandyleggedcoot · 30/10/2015 19:00

PP but named changed for this one
I did work in the prison estate for 10 years. Viv I'd also feel safer in a male prison.
The Male Estate is much larger and has many facilities. Horfield is a pretty grim place and had Tara not appealed, she wold probably have been moved sooner. There are prisons with wings that have managed to cope with transwomen before. I've worked with a few. Not brilliantly but satisfactorily.
The womens estate is full of sad and vulnerable women, they do not deserve this treatment.
Everything in the prison estate is judged on risk, maybe it is time to develop new trans wings to minimise the risk to all. Equality is about treating everyone equally and I for one do not feel that the women in the prison, Tara is going to, are being treated equally.

SuburbanRhonda · 30/10/2015 19:02

So I would suggest she does have a penis. Either that, or it is false advertising.

It's a really important point to clarify, though, isn't it? (Not saying you should clarify, werkz). I'm surprised none of the news articles have mentioned her having a penis or having undergone incomplete surgery.