to think if you have a penis, you do not belong in a woman's prison

[RickRoll]

There is to be an appeal tomorrow, at Bristol Crown Court, regarding the decision to send violent criminal Tara Hudson, who works as a transsexual prostitute (still has a penis, as 80% of transsexuals do), to male prison. Tara wants to go to a female prison.

AIBU to think that if you have a penis, you should go to male prison?

People are arguing that Tara is at risk of sexual assault, but Tara is not unique in this - lots of (non transgender) men are vulnerable, and the prison service has a responsibility to protect them.

However the whole taking hormones and being mutilated is disgusting

erm....I don't think its very nice to be born in the wrong body- and to every day wake up feeling wrong, and disjointed and not right. I would rather live in a society that acknowledges this, and cases like Tara (out little head-butting friend) are going to come up more and more

the hard won rights of women are being chipped away and eroded and once they are gone we'll never get them back

I cant see how that sentence links with this story to be honest

Prisons used to be mixed sex (and age) and women were subjected to massive abuse. Allowing anyone who says they are female to pitch up at a female prison, regardless of their offending behaviour and penis, is a fairly obvious step back.

the hard won rights of women are being chipped away and eroded and once they are gone we'll never get them back

I cant see how that sentence links with this story to be honest"

Don't you? Well, bearing in mind that a few minutes ago you didn't realise that Tara has a fully functioning penis that she like to use to "surprise" people, it's a fair guess that you haven't read the thread. Why don't you, and see if it all becomes clearer?

Taking hormones and 'mutilating' one's own body isn't disgusting if the person is capable of informed consent and they can find a surgeon to do it. We all own our own bodies, we can choose to have plastic surgery. This is an extreme example of elective surgery. As for hormone therapy, well it should be prescribed by a qualified doctor but I'm sure some people will bypass that and obtain hormones from the internet.

" to be born in the wrong body"

What the hell does that even mean?

Are we now supposed to accept the existence of souls? And that these metaphysical souls can be male or female? And that sometimes God makes mistakes and doesn't properly match the male body with the male soul and vice versa?

Surely the better explanation for the trans phenomenon is that something has gone wrong in the development of the brain and that it mistakenly believes the body to be a different gender than it actually is.

Do you know that 1/3 of baby boys born to women exposed to an oestrogen drug during pregnancy turn out to be transwomen?

What do you think about "born in the wrong body" now?

"Taking hormones and 'mutilating' one's own body isn't disgusting if the person is capable of informed consent and they can find a surgeon to do it. We all own our own bodies, we can choose to have plastic surgery."

Funny enough, that is not the line taken with anorexic or transabled people. What is so special about transgender people that their wish to 'mutilate' their bodies is considered not only granted but is considered perfectly normal?

can people stop being so angry and scathing in their posting here? Its supposed to be a conversation, not a fight.

I have RTWT and I still think she should be in a women's prison. I do not believe she poses a risk to female prisoners.

Cote, what you link one article and that's that! I strongly disagree with what you say and post here, I am shocked really. I suspect in the old days people either lived desperately unhappy lives, or committed suicide.

cote I guess you'd have to ask the surgeons who do it why they consider it ethical. Do you believe a person has the right to self harm or commit suicide, have an elective hysterectomy just because they don't want periods anymore or to modify their body in other ways?

stop having read the thread, why do you think she should be in Women's prison? Not trying to be aggressive, I'm genuinely interested in your conclusion and understanding your view

It's ok for women to get angry and speak out when their rights are being eroded. If anything, we need to get MORE ANGRY and be MORE SCATHING.

You don't think she poses a risk to female prisoners when she's been convicted of 8 serious assaults?

Tara was in an all male prison
now
Tara is in a not all male prison

As for all the other inmates, well fuck them, they are not important, they have never been male.
I feel like women's rights have been eroded.

Trans rights are important, but not at the cost of women's rights.

In you search the ethics of transgender surgery online there are some interesting papers (most are downloads, hence why I haven't linked)

Hermione. thanks for asking and not SHOUTING (cant you tell I don't like it )

this is my opinion only...

• from my limited understanding she does not present as someone who risks being a sexual predator to other women, in that her primary interest is to attract and liaise with men/hetros. It would be very out of character for someone of this ilk to decide they want to rape a woman, but its a risk, yes

• from a risk management perspective, the prison service need to place her where she is at less risk of being violently sexually assaulted and that place is a women's prison, albeit maybe in solo confinement

don't get me wrong this is an interesting thread.
Why does she have more rights then an effeminate young 18 year old man in the same situation- will will likely get assulkated etc.

also is it right that a female prisoner, suddenly gets someone with a penis sharing her cell? No its not- I agree

so my reasons are more risk assessment biased. Its an interesting topic and I have changed my views somewhat since RTWT

I fail to see why the problem of male violence is women's to solve. The people on this thread saying Tara isn't safe in a male prison so what are the options if women don't budge up - when did this become my problem? We won't solve male violence by giving men (in this case a violent man) access to women only space

And actually, I am really bloody angry about this.

There have been cases of transwomen raping and impregnating female prisoners when put in female prisons. Because the safety of women were seen as less important than the safety of people who, it turned out, were rapists themselves.

Hopefully this will not happen to the women that Tara will be joining, but if it does we can't exactly say we weren't prewarned.

noeffing - Personally, I do believe that a person should have full autonomy over decisions concerning his body - he should be able to cut off an organ or end their lives if they want to. They should also be free to snort, smoke, shoot, or otherwise take whatever drugs they like for their personal pleasure.

However, medical establishment and laws don't agree with me on this. Except when the person in question is trans, in which case the medical establishment bends over backwards to accommodate their wishes to drastically modify their bodies, including cutting off functional organs.

I think she should go to a male prison. The point is just because you think you're a woman and live like one doesn't make you a woman. But I notice the judge didn't want to get involved in this definition of man/woman and said it was up to the prison service. Very wise I thought. But I expect some might say fence sitting. No way can she be sharing with female prisoners and showering and using a loo.

Risk to female prisoners can't be the criteria for access to women's prisons, otherwise violent women won't count, and mild mannerered homosexual men will.

Ah, but the homosexual is a man, you might claim. But legally so is Tara.

cote they must think that it has a succesful outcome then, or at least a chance of success.

The point is just because you think you're a woman and live like one doesn't make you a woman

Well, what does make you a woman then? Surely in 2015 we aren't still in a situation where people honestly think your gender is entirely defined by your genitals?

oneflew it's also possible that some women would have consensual sex in an attempt to become pregnant and possibly have their sentence reduced.
As far as I'm aware she isn't going to share a cell, shower or toileting facilities with any other prisoners.

alltouchedout your chromosomes make you a woman.

Surely in 2015 we aren't still in a situation where people honestly think your gender is entirely defined by your genitals?

I don't think anyone has said that? Many have however pointed out that your sex is biologically determined.