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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think if you have a penis, you do not belong in a woman's prison

990 replies

RickRoll · 29/10/2015 19:15

There is to be an appeal tomorrow, at Bristol Crown Court, regarding the decision to send violent criminal Tara Hudson, who works as a transsexual prostitute (still has a penis, as 80% of transsexuals do), to male prison. Tara wants to go to a female prison.

AIBU to think that if you have a penis, you should go to male prison?

People are arguing that Tara is at risk of sexual assault, but Tara is not unique in this - lots of (non transgender) men are vulnerable, and the prison service has a responsibility to protect them.

OP posts:
saucony · 30/10/2015 16:07

I wonder how many FtM transsexuals ask to be in a men's prison. Hmm

SlaggyIsland · 30/10/2015 16:08

What, stopfucking, cock and all?

noblegiraffe · 30/10/2015 16:09

Her doctor might say she's a woman, but legally she's a man. That's got to be a sticking point?

Werksallhourz · 30/10/2015 16:13

Harried

Just to add ... there is also the point made by some commentators that the male privilege absorbed by trans-women who have been socialised as men from an early age is a factor in the public vocality and activism of transwomen, as opposed to trans-men who have been socialised as women.

In short, you don't get vocal activism and demands for biological males to be called "cis-men" because trans-men have been socialised, as girls and women, to not behave in an assertive or aggressive manner in socio-political space.

Of course, when you start to pursue these lines of argument, you realise that certain claims from the transgender community begin to look very fragile indeed. I would go so far as to suggest many transwomen do not understand what "gender" actually means and what the implications of their arguments are.

For example: if womanhood is to be defined by gender that is, socialised notions of "feminine" performance that cover appearance, behaviour and thought then how can an individual who displays "non-feminine" socialised behaviour and thought be defined as a woman under these terms?

By their public and over-assertive vocality and activism, and their authoritarian application of universal labels to other identity groups, all of which are not traditionally perceived as a "feminine" traits and distinctly point to an expression of masculinity, certain transwomen activists are eroding their own claims to womanhood as defined under their own terms.

And to follow on from Hermione, one thing I have noticed in debate with transwomen is that the overwhelming majority of them have next to no understanding of gender and how it impacts upon the female sex, or the actual lived experience of biological females.

This is where, I believe, that list of cis-privileges comes from. You can sense the underlying assumptions about "cis" women and "cis" womenhood, all of which are little more than Disneyfied stereotypes.

HamaTime · 30/10/2015 16:13

Nicky Morgan is talking about introducing legislation so people can legally self declare their own gender. I don't see how this doesn't mean that any male bodied offender can self declare as female and insist on being held on a female wing. And vice versa of course, but I suspect that would be less popular.

BlackbirdsInaPie · 30/10/2015 16:18

and the response from the gay (i.e. biological homosexual male) community was not supportive, to put it lightly

Now why does that not surprise me?

The internalised misogyny of some parts of the male gay community is still a bit shocking.

And secondly, well we all know that women - and feminists especially - have to look after everyone else. We as women are socilaised to move aside, make space for others, especially those more "needful", put our own needs after those of others'. And so on.

Yes, cis privilege indeed.

BlackbirdsInaPie · 30/10/2015 16:25

that is "not-Man" as automatically "woman", that the label "woman" is the big tent that covers everything that falls outside of the rather narrow parameters of what defines "Man"

And in patriarchy, to be 'not-Man' is to be not fully human. The sooner we can deconstruct this awful hierarchical oppressive binary, the better.

But it's this very violent misogyny which is why Ms Hudson is not safe in a man's prison unless she's going to be given very careful supervision, or solitary confinement for her own protection.

Because she is a Man who is also not-Man, she is an object of hatred & fear.

Senpai · 30/10/2015 16:31

I wonder how a person with a vagina would get on in a man's prison. Especially if they were smaller and less strong than virtually all the other prisoners.

They too belong in a woman's prison and need to be secluded from the rest of the population.

You lost the freedom of choice to live how you want when you broke the law. When they get out of prison they can go back to living as their chosen identity.

But as to the defining women, the only one that labels women as "cis" or "woman born woman" is the trans-gendered community. I really can't be bothered to care about what 1% of the population has labeled me as on a few select parts of the internet, when 99% of people simply call me a woman.

BlackbirdsInaPie · 30/10/2015 16:31

Werkzallhourz thank you for your really informed & thoughftful posts. THe questions about big pharma are particularly apposite

slugseatlettuce · 30/10/2015 16:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

kua · 30/10/2015 16:33

According to breaking news on Twitter, Tara is being moved to a women's facility.

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 30/10/2015 16:33

ah I did not realise she had a willy

right. confused now

onto to the next issue methinks as this is a twisted little pickle

that's VERY interesting about the hormones though. My friends cancer resurfaced after she had oestrogen boosts for IVF.

howtorebuild · 30/10/2015 16:36

I pity the cell mate.

emotionsecho · 30/10/2015 16:37

So yet again women have to give way, the hard won rights of women are being chipped away and eroded and once they are gone we'll never get them back.

This is so bloody depressing.

SlaggyIsland · 30/10/2015 16:41

Fucksake. Depressing indeed. So our space is just there to absorb everyone who doesn't fit the patriarchal view of the male gender, regardless of biology. In other words, we don't get a fucking space at all any more.

noeffingidea · 30/10/2015 16:43

Howtorebuild, I don't think there will be a cell mate. She will have her own cell , toilet and washing facilities.

Atenco · 30/10/2015 16:46

Werksallhourz You do make interesting points. As people we have a couple of shops near where I live where the assistant is transgender/transvestite and a lovely person. I would fight to defend their human rights. However the whole taking hormones and being mutilated is disgusting. I am totally against unnecessary medicines and operations, as they all serve to shorten a person's life. Moreover I think being a woman is much more than wearing heels? What we need is a society that accepts more varieties in types of boys and girls, men and women.

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 30/10/2015 16:46

I pity the cell mate - cell mates probably. I am sure the warders will pick wisely Grin

to be honest she will get the fuck bullied out of her whenever she goes. Putting aside the gender issues- she is less likely to be brutally sexually assaulted in a woman's prison than a men's prison which |I guess is why they have moved her

the hard won rights of women are being chipped away and eroded and once they are gone we'll never get them back

I cant see how that sentence links with this story to be honest

Atenco · 30/10/2015 16:47

And we need a prison system where all the inmates are safe.

Grrr, it seems that in the US, female prisons have male guards, now that is, indeed, terrifying.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/10/2015 16:48

Because they have segregated by sex prisons for a reason. And now a male who identifies as a woman has been given access to a female only space on this basis.

RufusTheReindeer · 30/10/2015 16:49

I cant see where she has been moved to a female prison

I read that she has been sent back to a male prison but the judge has asked the prison service to re consider

Have i misread that...it was on the BBC website...but we know what liars the media are Smile

emotionsecho · 30/10/2015 16:51

For all the reasons already gone into in depth on this thread stop.

howtorebuild · 30/10/2015 16:51

Anyone fancy a government petition? petition.parliament.uk/

EElisavetaOfBelsornia · 30/10/2015 16:52

Wow a lot of ill informed nonsense on here. One thing I have taken from this is a sense of relief that NOMS is the cautious, risk aware, slightly reactionary organisation it is. This government wants to sell off justice. Imagine if decisions about placements were made by Amie, Serco, Coca Cola and whoever else fancied a pop at running a prison. Now that's scary.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/10/2015 16:52

She lost her court appeal, but the Prison Service decided to move her.