to think if you have a penis, you do not belong in a woman's prison

[RickRoll]

There is to be an appeal tomorrow, at Bristol Crown Court, regarding the decision to send violent criminal Tara Hudson, who works as a transsexual prostitute (still has a penis, as 80% of transsexuals do), to male prison. Tara wants to go to a female prison.

AIBU to think that if you have a penis, you should go to male prison?

People are arguing that Tara is at risk of sexual assault, but Tara is not unique in this - lots of (non transgender) men are vulnerable, and the prison service has a responsibility to protect them.

Actually, many women's experience if harassment - on the street, St work, in families and relationships is precisely that. Bei g asked about our genitals and secondary sex characteristics, such as breasts, and hiwcee have sex, what we do etc etc

Look, a lot if this is a misreading (or non-reading) of some key queer theorists. analfwyn get back to me when you've read and understood Judith Butler et al.

"Huge numbers of women don’t accept transwomen as women at all."

Define "accept".

I have no problem accepting a transwoman into my circle of friends. I have no problem sharing an office with a transwoman. I have no personal problem with transwomen.

I do have a huge problem being told that I must accept a pre-op, pre-hormone, proverbial "man in a dress" into the dressing room of the local swimming pool, where DD (10) goes to change alone. Which is the nonsensical conclusion to which the current trans doctrine of Whoever thinks they are women are women takes us.

"The basic message I’ve received here is that most of the posters do view transwomen as men"

Transwomen are a subset of men: those who "feel like women". They are male, with XY chromosomes in every cell and functional male genitalia.

"And if they do use preferred pronouns etc, it’s all totally conditional on the trans woman behaving in a particular way"

Not true. I always use preferred pronouns because it is only polite to do so. And because the reverse would be unnecessarily hurtful to the trans person in question, and I don't see the point of that.

I'll call you whatever you want and go along with whatever makes you happy. As long as making you happy does not infringe on the hard-won liberties of women everywhere.

Words fail me at some of the cis-gender privileges.

I am tempted to say "Well, your're a woman- this is the stuff women deal with daily. Join us in our battle against the patriarchy, sister!"

Oh, apart from the shoes. I agree most cis women do not have size 12 feet.

MaudGonneMad - did I miss a question?

I thought I was asked what privilege cis women have that trans women don’t have and what I meant by ‘attitudes have a long way to go’? If there’s another one, then that’s my skim reading the thread and not paying attention.

BlackbirdsInaPie - presume that was aimed at me? It’s ‘annwfyn’ not ‘analfwyn’. Tis Welsh. Personally, I’ve never had anyone demand that I justify or explain how my genitals to them. I’ve experienced sexual harassment, which I think is different. When I’ve been dating women, I’ve had people stare and ask questions. I will say however, flat out, that I have never experienced as much hostility and aggression and outright rudeness when dating a cis woman as I did during my time dating a trans woman. But I might have been super unlucky there and I don’t really want to compare homophobia and transphobia as ‘better’ or ‘worse’. I just want to say that both exist.

As a girl/woman. I have beenvadked about my genitals by random men since at least age 15

Annwfyn I think you have taken a wrong turn, Tumblr is that way.

Agree with cote

can someone explain why trans women are seen as a subset of women and not men

And why trans men are a subset of men

Genuine question

The Xxed - I think that’s a fair point. I don’t think I’m going to change anyone’s mind here, and no one is going to change mine. I think you’ll keep thinking I’m mad, and I’ll keep cringing and feeling super uncomfortable at the comments I’m seeing.

I will probably mute this thread now. I have said my piece.

If she was that concerned she wouldn't have acted in such a way as to warrant a prison sentence.

I am cringing that you believe you are somehow more worldly more knowledgeable than the women on this thread, disabled, black, gay, straight, young and older women have all posted on here sharing there insights. Women from a range of social economic backgrounds and professions.

We are not sheltered misinformed reactionaries.

Annwyfn- I'm not exactly sure what you want people to say. You say you "won't change people's minds" - but what about?

Women (well, people in general) are not going to accept transwomen as women just on their say so. Why should we? There has to be a cut off point somewhere when it comes to women only spaces and women's safety. And a fully functioning penis is on the wrong side of that cut off point as far as I'm concerned.

Can I just go back to the sex offenders comment saying Tara will be safer in a womens prison might be true but what about the women in prison they might not be safe from Tara again why does she trump the majority and do we really think female prisons are warm and fluffy places

From what I've heard she knew since age 5 she was a girl inside and started taking hormones 6 years ago. I can't see this being a spur of the moment thing to get into a female prison so I'm on the fence with this one. She's in danger in a male prison by the way she looks and I can understand in some way how female prisoners could be in danger. But wouldn't she see her penis as a not part of herself if she was a girl inside. That might sound weird but I see it that way. I'm not in her head so I don't know but I think if I felt like she did, being in a man's body as a woman, I would see my penis as a non working object so I wouldn't want to use it. Sorry I really don't know how it works

Tara uses her penis to 'surprise' and penetrate men munkisocks

munkisocks but she does use her penis. And reviews of her services as a prostitute concur with that.

Does Tara have gender reassignment surgery planned or does she plan on keeping her penis?

Munkisocks, I think it works differently for different people.
Up until a few days ago I was under the (mistaken) impression that all trans men and women wanted to work towards a full transition, so that they could be as close to their desired sex as possible. Obviously I was wrong.

Ah that's the way I saw it too - wanting to be as close to the desired sex as possible therefore not using penis. Didn't realise there was a grey area as such

Call me cynical, but I can't help thinking that given the spectacular amount of press this is getting (in comparison to that of other trans people who have been similar situations), if she can sit tight for twelve weeks she's got a major shot at a media career before her. Whether she chooses to be the trans crusader figurehead the UK media is currently missing or porn superstar.

Also sorry if it's up thread but what was the assault? If she got pissed and threw a bottle at someone than yeah she's probably in as much danger as any similar sized inmate, but if she kicked the crap out of someone Id not be quite so concerned.

Also, it's not going to be plain sailing in a women's prison is it? If she doesn't like being shouted at.

Flinging wouldn't you? Do you know a woman died a few years ago after being hit on the head by a bottle someone had randomly thrown?
I believe she headbutted a barman.

So Tara is a nasty violent brute:

"Mr Dyer said his nose was damaged and that he required £3,500 of dental treatment following the headbutt,

Offence"so serious because of a headbutt on someone doing their job causing them pain and injury" - victim was bar manager Christopher Dyer"

entitled too:

"Headbutt came after Mr Dyer refused a clearly intoxicated Hudson more drinks, struck him with handbag after being escorted from bar in Bath"

"Court now hearing about Hudson's previous convictions, 2 community orders for battery, possession of an offensive weapon..."

news.sky.com/story/1578923/live-tara-hudson-fights-male-prison-sentence

It seems the judge's main option is to free Tara, rather than move Tara to a female prison.