to think if you have a penis, you do not belong in a woman's prison

[RickRoll]

There is to be an appeal tomorrow, at Bristol Crown Court, regarding the decision to send violent criminal Tara Hudson, who works as a transsexual prostitute (still has a penis, as 80% of transsexuals do), to male prison. Tara wants to go to a female prison.

AIBU to think that if you have a penis, you should go to male prison?

People are arguing that Tara is at risk of sexual assault, but Tara is not unique in this - lots of (non transgender) men are vulnerable, and the prison service has a responsibility to protect them.

I believe in calling people what they want to be called.

I would like people to extend the same courtesy to me.

Because Annwfyn, the definition of a cis woman is something along the lines of 'someone whose gender identity matches the sex they were assigned at birth'. For many women this statement doesn't represent how they feel about themselves, especially if they feel gender is a social construct. They're still women.

annwfyn most white people don't say that.

"always reminds me of white people who complain "I'm not white. I don't like labels. I don't even see "

Bollocks. Only racist white people say anything of the sort- usually in the context of refusing to call people who are not white what they want to be called.

BertrandRussell - and objecting to cis feels the same to me. It's saying that trans is abnormal and an aberration and you are the baseline. Which I think is unfair, especially when cis women have so many privileges in this situation.

This thread is a pretty good example of how far attitudes to trans people have to go.

Can you explain exactly what privileges women enjoy compared to people born male exactly?
And please don't refer to me as cis.

Tell me about the privileges that cis women have?

I find the phrase cis objectionable.

"This thread is a pretty good example of how far attitudes to trans people have to go."

I wish people didn't feel the need to add these little digs. Yes of course everyone is feeling their way in this. It is possible that some trains people need to look at their attitudes too. We're all in this together!

annwfyn 'woman' is the correct word for an adult human female. 'White' is the commonly accepted word for caucasian. Your analogy would only stand if the word 'white' had just been invented by non caucasians who then proceeded to tell caucasian people that they should now accept being called by that word.

If your race/gender/culture/religion don't fit in a box, life will be harder (but hopefully richer). However, you are wasting your breath to try to fight the majority which defines society's boxes. Trying to make the whole works see humans in terms of cis and trans is a losing battle.

I don't find the word "cis" onjectionable. If people want to use it to describe themselves- absolutely fine. I don't. And I don't want to be called it. Which should also be fine.

Personally, I think the people who make a huge song and dance about male-to-female transgender people are somehow undermining what is is to be a woman are just the same as the sexist men who complain about little women muscling in in the man jobs and how women should know their place.

But there is absolutely no point trying to say this kind of thing on MN which is why I generally hide all transgender threads as they appear. I find the attitudes on them repellent.

Quite often, slugs, it means "I'm cleverer than you"

I remember using similar expressions in the 70s about gay rights.

especially when cis women have so many privileges in this situation

Oh yes, women are so privileged in current and historic gender roles. Social constructions of femininity - what it is decreed to be a "proper" woman - are so liberated, allowing women such freedom. Women are considered fully human in our culture. Oh yes, I really feel that.

FFS, are we saying that women have more privilege than a someone born and socialised as a man, whatever gender identity a man subsequently wants to adopt?

I think the people who make a huge song and dance about male-to-female transgender people are somehow undermining what is is to be a woman are just the same as the sexist men who complain about little women muscling in in the man jobs and how women should know their place

No, there really isn't a level playing field here, because you're proposing this analogy completely outside of the structural oppression of women which is the system we live in ie patriarchy. Men [power] complaining that women [oppressed, historically & culturally] have "taken" their jobs is not the same as women [oppressed, historically & culturally] arguing for nuance in debates over men [born & socialised into male privilege ie patriarchy] deciding that they will define what being a woman is.

Women have had to deal with men deciding what women are, and what it is to be a "proper" woman for millennia. John Stuart Mill twigged this almost 150 years ago, as did Mary Wollstonecraft -- that we really don't know what "woman" means or what it is to be a woman outside of the oppressive structure of patriarchy, and the subsequent socialisation into gendered identities driven by normative values of "masculinity" and "femininity".

So that is why many feminists object to men telling women how they should feel, and how they should experience their identity.

As an aside, I object to terminology like "huge song and dance". This is the sort of language that has been used historically to stop women expressing opinions, particularly negative ones, about anything. "Hysterical" "Shrieking" "Banging the drum" "Making a huge song and dance"

No. Asking questions, expressing opinions, not automatically doing what they're told. Maybe even disagreeing

Oh yes, women are so privileged in current and historic gender roles

Well, yes, in some ways they are. You can be a woman and experience privilege. I am a woman. I don’t have male privilege, but I am white and experience white privilege. I am middle class and experience white privilege. I am cis and experience cis privilege.

It’s called intersectionality – the concept that different oppressions impact on you differently. In the same way, a black man from a poor background would still have male privilege and wouldn’t experience sexism. That’s a specific card that fate has given him, even while he’s not got much else.

As for specific privileges, there are loads of lists online if you google.

itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2011/11/list-of-cisgender-privileges/

The one above is a good one. Examples include:

You have the ability to flirt, engage in courtship, or form a relationship and not fear that your biological status may be cause for rejection or attack, nor will it cause your partner to question their sexual orientation.

You have the ability to not worry about being placed in a sex-segregated detention center, holding facility, jail or prison that is incongruent with your identity.

Strangers don’t assume they can ask you what your genitals look like and how you have sex.

There are others.

As for my comment that this thread shows how far attitudes have to go – I think that’s totally accurate. The message that I’ve got from this thread is that Germaine Greer is right. Huge numbers of women don’t accept transwomen as women at all. The basic message I’ve received here is that most of the posters do view transwomen as men, when push comes to shove. And if they do use preferred pronouns etc, it’s all totally conditional on the trans woman behaving in a particular way – not having sex with men, having (difficult, painful, comes after a long waiting list and a massively complex process) surgery straight away, not getting in trouble with the law, working in a ‘respectable’ job. It’s not acceptance at all; it’s conditional tolerance which is a very different thing.

I could be way out of line here, but most sex offenders are men. Men are more likely to commit a sex crime. There are many sex offenders in male prisons and Tara, although yes she has male anatomy, is the closest those men are going to get to a woman. Of course she will be a target! I believe she will be safer in a women's prison.

She broke the law so tough luck, deal with the consequences. If she wants to live as a woman, then behave appropriately and she can live as a pigeon if she wants However, she is a criminal so has to abide by the rules of the prison service.

"objecting to cis feels the same to me. It's saying that trans is abnormal and an aberration and you are the baseline."

Putting aside your inflammatory choice of words, isn't it true, though? The norm is for a brain to make correct assessments about the body, like a male knowing that he is male or a female knowing that it is female. Trans, by definition, are a very small minority of people whose brains have an erroneous perception of their bodies - e.g. "I am female" when they are in fact male, with XY chromosomes in every cell and functional penis & testes between their legs.

This is clearly not the norm, just like people believing they belong to various animal species or people believing one of their legs is too much and must be amputated are not the norm. (I just realised that the latter is now called "transabled", which looks to me like another milestone for those proficient in Newspeak.)

Of course they are all people with all the rights and respect owed to anyone else. Nobody is disputing that. However, you cannot ask people to overlook that all of the above people have an internal problem (their brains making incorrect judgements about their bodies) that is independent from society, patriarchy, or whatever.

"Which I think is unfair"

That is sweet of you However, science does not work on the basis of what is unfair as in "Aww, poor dear has had such a hard life. So let's say it's all part of the human norm to think his left leg should be amputated."

You've completely dodged the question you were asked, annfwyn. All that is obfuscation.

"I believe she will be safer in a women's prison."

Of course Tara will be safer in a women's prison. Nobody is disputing that.

The question is whether the female inmates of that women's prison will be safe from Tara.

"Strangers don’t assume they can ask you what your genitals look like and how you have sex." - is this for real? Do you not think that lesbians get asked how they have sex? Who is the 'man' in the relationship? Every single 'cis' privilege checklist appears to be written by a deluded man who think 'cis' women live in some sort of magical My Little Pony land of flawless hair and makeup and benevolent, acquiescent, men.