to think if you have a penis, you do not belong in a woman's prison

[RickRoll]

There is to be an appeal tomorrow, at Bristol Crown Court, regarding the decision to send violent criminal Tara Hudson, who works as a transsexual prostitute (still has a penis, as 80% of transsexuals do), to male prison. Tara wants to go to a female prison.

AIBU to think that if you have a penis, you should go to male prison?

People are arguing that Tara is at risk of sexual assault, but Tara is not unique in this - lots of (non transgender) men are vulnerable, and the prison service has a responsibility to protect them.

Rickroll I wonder whether your concern about this particular case and your interest in researching it might be usefully deployed through an email to a newspaper or website you trust to use the information you've found in a responsible and illuminating way? I'm not thread-policing, I'm just saying that posting all these details on this thread isn't the best way of changing public opinion about Tara's case, if that's what you want to achieve.

If you want MNers to think more about the issue, that's great - I do, too. But you're (rightly, I think) angry about how it's been reported in the media, so if you want to do something about that, email Huffpo or tweet Zoe Williams or pitch a comment piece to the Indy or something. It seems to me you want a wider influence for this than you're getting here.

Yes well you know what, there was an easy way for her to avoid going to a male prison and it wasn't to circulate a petition or ask for a transfer it was to NOT VIOLENTLY ASSAULT SOMEONE.

Since she committed a(nother) crime, I really couldn't care less about her dignity or any of the rest of it. I care about the person who was the victim.

She's pre-op and she still uses her penis so she is therefore a man who is enjoying some aspects of being a woman. She is not a woman biologically and I suspect not in terms of gender, either. Either way, I actually don't care. She's a criminal and her punishment is all of her own making.

She's a textbook example of an "early-transitioning" transwoman--nearly always sexually attracted only to men, not women.

I think she is very unlikely to pose a sexual threat to women, to be honest.

But it is about the principle, more than anything else. If we start allowing people with dicks into women's prisons, we have no way to stop the sexually-attracted-to-women-type-of-transwomen from getting in as well--and they really do potentially pose a threat.

I don't want her to be raped or abused in prison (in spite of the
horrible things she has done--because a civilized society does not use rape as a punishment).

But if she has a dick, I don't think she belongs in the women's prison either. We have to draw the line somewhere. I think she needs to be kept in a specialist facility which is exclusively for transwomen until/unless she is 100% transitioned. Unfortunately, I don't think such a thing exists in the UK. Maybe it should.

Well ,she doesn't have to be sexually attracted to women to be a risk to women, within a prison setting, does she? We know prison rapes are commited by men who aren't normally attracted to men. So it's quite feasible for her to be a sexual risk to women in a womans prison, especially as she seems to have a history of violence towards women.

I much prefer the term wbw (woman-born woman) to cis-anything. If I had to choose, I mean. But do they mean the same thing?

So you're arguing trans women are actually men?

When it comes to biology, yes.

Trans people can live whatever lives they choose. The second they break the law, is the second they are sorted through the system the same way everyone else is: based on biology, not how they feel on the inside.

They do have a duty to protect her though from the men, and should probably keep her secluded from the rest of the prison population.

so at least three criminal convictions, the one tried in October 2014 at Bristol Crown Court (unknown offence), one of common assault by beating in October 2015 at Bath Magistrates Court, and a third, violent conviction, in January 2013 for common assault by beating, and threatening/abusive words or behaviour

www.bathchronicle.co.uk/magistrates/story-17883827-detail/story.html

One instance of common assault does not make her a risk to others in general - although no, it's not great either.

This is the bit I want to know more about. I doubt anyone would get a prison sentence for a single common assault and it is not referred to in any of the emails I have had about the petition.

So to continue my particular logical thread. Those of you who hold the view that self identifying as a woman means you are a woman and should in all circumstances be treated as one, why would it be OK for an inmate already in the women's prison to refuse to share a cell with Tara? Prisoners do not get to choose their cell mates.

He is technically still male, as well as being a violent criminal, he shoukd be in a male prison. He will be with vulnerable women, his do you know he might commit a violent act against them!

Areoflotgirl- that sort of simplistic view is no more helpful than the "she is a woman and should be treated as such. full stop" response.

I reject woman born woman as much as I do cisgender. Why should millions of women change their definition of themselves to accommodate a vocal minority's definition of women. Join us transwomen, you are welcome, bur don't trample on our truth in the process.

I'm a woman (an adult human female), and that is the only definition I accept. Anyone that doesn't like it can fuck off.
sassh read the post above yours. Tara has a history of offences.

It's true bert however you want to look at it, she is technically a male and shoukd be in a male prison. Mabey there should be a section in prison for people in a similar situation. He is still a violent criminal, what if he rapes his cell mate or committee a violent act against a vulnerable woman in prison. The prison service hpalso has a duty of care towards their inmates!

It's very disappointing that the media is pushing the 'poor helpless make-up artist' line when a Mumsnetter with a little time to spare has uncovered a different truth.

I once accidentally dated a transvestite. He genuinely believed that all women fantasized about having sex with a 'chick with a dick' - that we would be delighted if our BFF suddenly said 'hey, babe - I've got a surprise for you.'

That's what makes me wary of sharing women-only spaces with 'entire' transwomen. How could anyone tell the difference between a transwoman, who posters are confidently telling us are no threat to wbw, and my ex, who would have been getting off on it and looking for an opportunity for sex?

She is a convicted violent criminal who IMO will be a danger to vulnerable female prisoners who are biologically smaller and weaker.

But aren't prisons full of men and women who are larger and stronger than their fellow prisoners? Should we start separate prisons for weaker prisoners?

To continue Bertrand's theme about forcing people to share cells, should men be forced to share cells with practising dominant homosexuals?

"To continue Bertrand's theme about forcing people to share cells, should men be forced to share cells with practising dominant homosexuals?"
I bet they wouldn't. But men's needs are always more important than women's......

How about forcing women to share cells with dominant lesbians?

It's a non issue really as she is rightly in a male prison. Once she has had her genitals removed and like a female, then she can be classed as female. While they are transitioning she us still make whatever she feels.

When other peoples definition of themselves start encroaching on the very definition of WOMAN, women's rights and women's potential choices, then I become fucked off. What am I supposed to be today? A cisgender woman born woman? Fuck off, I don't want a label! Stop inflicting this on others.

Hear, hear!

And I'm interested in who the victims of Ms Hudson's assaults were? Male or female? Or both? Radio 4 reported her family saying a couple of days ago that apparently she gets into fights in pubs and just can't help herself. She sounds like a deeply troubled person.

Why does the phrase 'cis' make people so defensive? It's just a descript.

It always reminds me of white people who complain "I'm not white. I don't like labels. I don't even see colour".

The rest of the world does see these things and refusing to use a word which describes a specific phenomenon doesn't mean that phenomenon isn't real. Society treats people differently if they identify with their assigned at birth gender, and it does change your journey through life, no matter how often you claim that your 'truth' is to pretend that that fact doesn't exist.

Tara does sound troubled i agree and maybe prison isnt the right place for her to be male or female but she cant go around assaulting people and demand preferential treatment because she thinks she is entitled .

For me, this isn't a difficult question. I am a woman - I thoroughly object to the ridiculous 'cis' .

Tara has a penis and is therefore a man and should be sent to a male prison.

Annwfyn because, biologically, my sex is a woman. It's not a cis-anything. Why should I have to adopt some random label when my belief in gender extends only as far as that it's a social construct to fuck with people born with female genitalia?

Gender is a menu with two options, not an a la carte experience.