to think if you have a penis, you do not belong in a woman's prison

[RickRoll]

There is to be an appeal tomorrow, at Bristol Crown Court, regarding the decision to send violent criminal Tara Hudson, who works as a transsexual prostitute (still has a penis, as 80% of transsexuals do), to male prison. Tara wants to go to a female prison.

AIBU to think that if you have a penis, you should go to male prison?

People are arguing that Tara is at risk of sexual assault, but Tara is not unique in this - lots of (non transgender) men are vulnerable, and the prison service has a responsibility to protect them.

And tiggy just comes on the threads to show us Taras picture

I don't get it, whats the point.

Having sex with men has nothing to do with her gender. That's her sexuality. You can be trans and straight, trans and bi, trans and gay.

I don't know what being a female is.

Yes I was born female and I have 2 children to show that I have all my lady parts working.

Does that mean a woman who has fertility problems is less of a woman.

In 2015 is this what defines what is a male or female.

I really support transgender rights, this a person who needs protection

Transgender or not, this is a person, who it seems, is capable of violent assault and lacks self-control. I should think it's the people around her who need protection. That's why she's been sentenced to prison. She comes across as a chaotic disordered person generally.

Also, she's not going to share a cell in either prison. That's a complete red herring argument.

No wonder this mum posted

Yes, she's quite rightly wondering whether a decision her DS has made after two weeks on an internet forum, about which he's "maybe 70%" sure, should be the catalyst for major surgery and hormone therapy that could render him infertile, whatever gender he decides he ultimately is.

No wonder she posted.

There are plenty of violent women in uk prison as well.

Sex is a biological fact that easy to determine in 99% of people who are either male or female. In 1% or so of people, this isn't immediately easy to determine due to intersex conditions. It is up to each one of those people with an intersex condition to determine which sex they wish to be identified as, or neither or both. Being intersex is not the same as being transgender at all.

Gender is a social construct, and an individual person can be transgender if they wish to conform to a different gender construct than the one associated with their sex. They cannot change their sex, and become the opposite sex. I reject gender constructs and wish we lived in a society where they aren't so rigidly enforced.

Of course not i have childless friends for whatever reasons having children does not make you a whole woman or having medical problems does not make a woman defective that is like saying a woman didnt give birth naturally if she had a section after all she has a vagina

Does that mean a woman who has fertility problems is less of a woman.

No. And nobody has made that argument.

But ultimately the things that make a female and a male is the reproduction organs.

You are incorrect. It is the chromosomes. Some women are born without a uterus but still have XX chromosomes. Are you really saying they are not women?

I'm talking biologically here not gender.

piper it's the chromosomes that define male/female. XY =male, XX = female. That can't be changed.

piper it's the chromosomes that define male/female. XY =male, XX = female. That can't be changed.

Interesting point, because it demonstrates that the criteria for assigning sex can change over time in any culture.

And in fact, in most cases, sex is assigned on the basis of the appearance of a baby's genitals (which sometimes conflicts with the baby's chromosomes).

If sex isn't reliably binary, how can we hope that gender will be reliably binary?

piper here is a little table that explains some fertility problems. Note, it is the presence or absence of the 'Y' chromosome that determines sex www.embryology.ch/anglais/ugenital/molec01.html

I'm talking about the biological definition, adjustablewench

Who wants gender to be reliably binary? I don't think feminists do. In fact, transpeople seem to support the binary nature of gender most of all.

YANBU

I used to be very much 'pro trans' and I of course still support the rights of any person to identify and live as whatever or whoever they like, providing they don't harm anyone else by doing so.

But, largely down to discussion on MN it has to be said, I have changed my views (become peak trans??) and I now feel that trans rights are in danger of eroding women's rights. I don't think trans people are less important than women, not at all. But there are far fewer of them and I don't think the rights/needs of the few should trump the equal and pre-existing rights/needs of the many. Especially when those rights/needs have been so hard fought for.

I agree that Tara should be in a male prison as she is male. A male woman, fair enough, but still a male. Technically I think she would still be a male even without a penis (as I think sex is defined by XX and XY not penis and vulva) but I think she would have more of a sympathetic case if she was outwardly female.

I see intersex individuals as rare exceptions who don't affect general truths and norms. I think there's a group of people somewhere (not the behavioural changes of the group previously posted about) where some individuals actually do change sex physically at puberty - very strange and fascinating but statistically insignificant. I'm intrigued by the 1% stat posted upthread - can't see how that can possibly be true.

Also - although many many women in prison are extremely vulnerable, others are hardly harmless softies are they?! I think Tara would get quite a lot of abuse and violence directed at her in a women's prison too (or maybe I grew up watching too much 'Bad Girls' :p)

What happens to f to m transsexuals who commit a crime? They must go through total hell in men's prisons don't they? Far worse than a m to f, I would have thought.

how can we hope that gender will be reliably binary?

Why do we want gender to be "reliably" binary? It's a cultural construct, and at the moment seems to be moving towards hyperextremes. It seems to me that's part of this increased level of trans*activism. Together with renewed misogyny and male homophobia.

bring back the 70s, and Mao suits & dungarees and long hair and flowery t-shirts for everyone ...

I see intersex individuals as rare exceptions who don't affect general truths and norms. I think there's a group of people somewhere (not the behavioural changes of the group previously posted about) where some individuals actually do change sex physically at puberty - very strange and fascinating but statistically insignificant. I'm intrigued by the 1% stat posted upthread - can't see how that can possibly be true.

Indeed - the question of whether the presence of intersex conditions undermines the sex binary is one that divides people. Perhaps there aren't enough examples to constitute a real challenge - or perhaps it's convenient to exclude counterexamples. It also depends how you count them: the 1% figure probably includes conditions like Klinefelter (XXY), which isn't always recognised as an intersex condition. So there's room for debate.

I do think, though, that for people who acknowledge intersex conditions as undermining biological truisms it's more straightforward to question biological determinism; whereas if biological determinism is privileged it's more likely that people will subsume gender under biology.

I kind of agree with you there, manic . I actually supported Tara, believing that she was certified as female by her doctor, and that her penis was no longer functioning. It would appear that is not true.
I've been reading quite a bit about transgenderism over the last few weeks, I got quite an insight from a gay man's forum. They tend to see it from a different prospective. It did make me think a bit.
I always assumed the person had to go through the complete process before they could be legally recognised as the 'new' gender, now it appears that is not the case.

I have no issue with people having surgery to feel more at peace with their own body. Call yourself what you like, fine. If it doesn't affect me or hurt anyone, be happy and do what you like. I was a trans ally.... But:

When other peoples definition of themselves start encroaching on the very definition of WOMAN, women's rights and women's potential choices, then I become fucked off. What am I supposed to be today? A cisgender woman born woman? Fuck off, I don't want a label! Stop inflicting this on others.

She should be in a male prison until she has fully transitioned. It is her issue, not the issue of a prison full of potentially vulnerable prisoners who should not have to be near a penis during their custodial stay at all.

It looks like Tara has a history of serious offending.

This was last October, at Bristol Crown Court:

02/10/2014 Thu, For Preliminary Hearing - Case Started - 11:06 at Court: 10
02/10/2014 Thu, For Preliminary Hearing - Case to be listed for Sentence on 30-Oct-2014 - 11:15 at Court: 10

And then this current assault, on 26 December 2014.

A couple of points:

(1) to have gone to Crown Court this would have been a serious offence
(2) the current offence was heard at Bath Magistrates Court, so less serious, BUT did she have a suspended sentence hanging over her from the end of October?
(3) it seems that she should have been sent to prison last October, because whatever her sentence was, and we can assume it wasn't immediate custodial (perhaps suspended), she didn't exactly learn her lesson, because she was beating up a woman in a bar, less than 2 months later.

Why the fuck is the media jerking off over porno pictures of this transsexual and not reporting ANYTHING about this person's history of repeated offending?

What is really galling is that the reports now suggest that as a result of the petition, they are going to consider moving her.

Why was no one organised enough to petition against moving her? I'd have signed it and enough women feel this way. As Germaine said, to speak of your real feelings on this topic, and your fears for women's rights being sidelined to protect transwomens rights means you are labelled transphobic.

I'm not transphobic at all. But women should not be sidelined to accommodate transwomen. We should ALL be treated fairly.