Are we doing ourselves any favours with the "I'm hormonal excuse"?

[GruntledOne]

We see only too often on here someone excusing or explaining daft/unreasonable/irrational behaviour on the basis that "I'm pregnant/just. given birth/premenstrual/menstrual/post menstrual, I'm hormonal, I can't help it". Yet there are hordes of women out there handling difficult and/or dangerous jobs day after day with no concessions for the possibility that it could be that time of the month. You don't see female police officers claiming that they don't fancy going on that dawn raid as it's the wrong time of the month, or barristers excusing a bad job because they're pregnant. I've worked with women in a variety of jobs over the years and never been able to tell when they were on their periods unless they mentioned it.

What concerns me about constantly reaching for the hormonal excuse is that it will backfire. It's exactly the excuse employers use for not employing or promoting women, and we are simply giving it credence. So should we maybe all give it a rest?

petand because one person in particular said it almost everyday, usually after she had over stepped the mark. When it was put to her that she may need to see a GP if she was struggling she admitted she just gets pissed off and after she was disciplined it stopped. However she was like for years because her previous, male manager, never challenged her on it because he was afraid of challenging her.

I spend 70 hours a week with my colleagues. I know them better than members of my own family.

Pre dc I had no idea about how hormones affect you but now I realise. It's like an angry little monster inside, I remember one day it was so bad I just held my hand under the boiling tap to try and make it stop - that's not normal is it!!! There's been days I've just cried and cried, days I've been parked next to a motorway bridge rationalising why I shouldn't jump.
All because of the monster that's inside that pops up monthly.

I worked with a girl whose moods I eventually plotted on a calendar and could work out when her monster was kicking in.

There was someone on tv a year or so ago who said a good employer would let you have time off etc as necessary. Whilst I can't agree with that, I know some days that monster has nearly caused me some serious shit!!

Well, yes, it's annoying annoying and rude when people say "I'm a bit OCD" meaning they like to keep their desk tidy, or "I was so depressed when GBBO ended", but YWBU to start a thread called 'are we doing ourselves any favours with the "I'm mentally ill' excuse" ', saying that one in four people have had a mental health problem and that they manage to do a competent job, so people should just shut up about mental illness and get in with their work because they are making everyone else who had had a diagnosis of mental illness look bad.

To use a different analogy, it's not unreasonable to object to people claiming to have flu when they are a bit sniffly, but I think it is unreasonable to claim that colds don't really exist/ don't make people feel all that bad/ that people should just take a Lemsip and carry on as usual when sometimes "just" a cold can also feel pretty shit, can be pretty serious for some people with underlying health problems, and can sometimes lead to more serious complications in otherwise healthy people.

Axe - are you seriously worried that because some women suffer debilitating pmt the "logical" consequence of this would be to deny all women employment, thus none of us had better admit to any weakness whatsoever lest we set the cause of feminism back and concede that we can't have equality in the workplace after all? Smacks a bit of "when a man fails, he fails as an individual, when a woman fails, she faols on behalf of her whole sex".

Also, consider the parallel: among social drinkers, some occasionally get so trolleyed they come into work hung over. Does this mean employers should only employ teetotallers?

Most of us have ups and downs for all sorts of reasons - bad night's sleep, bit of a cold, hormonal issues that aren't sex-specific (nasty as I'm finding the menopause it's nowhere near as debilitating for me as an overactive thyroid), emotional issues like bereavement. Most of us manage to work round these - and most employers are sensible enough to realise staff have ups and downs and that what matters is performance averaged over a longer period than one day. Why should hormonal issues specific to women somehow be in a different category, a failing so grave that we must either deny they exist or by acknowledging them (and, note, it's only a small minority for whom they're really bad) accept we aren't fit for the workplace?

I think it's really hard for people who don't experience to know what it's like. To put PMDD into perspective, it is often misdiagnosed as bipolar disorder, and can affect behaviour in much the same way

Yeap, my dd was a monster with PMD and for two weeks out of every month. After I got her treatment she explained to me that she had tried not to say things but they came out of her mouth before she could stop herself.

The only time it is acceptable is after giving birth, PND and/or PTSD and even then I'm not 100% convinced it's hormones but a readonable reaction to a huge life event.

Endocrinologist are we shrunkenhead

FFS. People with Thyroid problems...people with Diabetes...people with sleep disorders...guess what ALL hormone disorders...all linked with mood.

I am not worried about anything. My point is you can't say that all women are slaves to their hormones whilst getting annoyed at other blaming your hormones.

We are talking generally. The point is trying to made that women who say 'it's my hormones' to shut down conversations about their behaviour is not ok. And yes it impacts other people.

Like people who run round saying 'I am so bi-polar' when they aren't, they are just having a bad day.

pet I haven't made any assumption about how hormones effect all women. The OP is talking about people who blame hormones when it's Judith itty behaviour. The same as men will say 'boys will be boys' etc. I used one woman as an example. But in most recent office 'hormonal' or the delightful 'yeah I know it was out of order but I've got the decorators in' was used by lots of women because they knew it would shut the conversation down.

If you are talking to people like shot and can't help it. You should seek advice from a GP. But plenty of tem could help it, they chose not to.

That's the problem with MN you can't have a conversation about a small but significant minority saying something inappropriate because there is another section of society who would be reasonable to say the same thing.

I think saying that one is hormonal, if it is true, is perfectly valid as a warning or as part of an apology. It shows self-awareness.

Actually, on rereading the OP it is totally contradictory. She starts saying that she has never met anyone who refers to the state of their hormones at work, and then says that there is a risk that employers will discriminate against women (because people talk about this online or at home?)

I think it's a term that shouldn't be bandied about the way it is, because that trivialises the experience of women who really do suffer terribly from hormone-related issues.

Most times I see it, it's used by women who are just feeling a bit sorry for themselves. Or, even worse, women with a genuine grievance, being treated like shit by their dp or whoever, but feel the need to include somewhere in their description an explanation that they're 'just feeling a bit hormonal tonight'.

Both of these perpetuate the notion that problems such as crippling endometriosis, murderous PMS, dickhead dhs, are all down to the same issue, and all we have to do is take ourselves off and eat chocolate in the bath. That just doesn't work for those who are genuinely suffering.

Using it in a lighthearted way is absolutely fine imo.

I do think that some people go too much the other way and try and brush it aside although it can be a problem.

I am using fertility drugs - they effect my hormones so much that is seriously effects my ability to do certain things. Within my cycle there are times I cannot concentrate, when I am irrationally weepy or angry and a time when I feel like I could take on the world. I never suffered any of this before, it is purely hormonal and it effects everything I do right now.

So I actually think YABU

YABU OP.

Women's hormones fluctuate and that can impact their mood. Given that this has been happening for millennia, you'd think that people would be used to it now.

You would also think that after decades of feminism, women would be able to see these fluctuations as natural and even useful instead of dismissing them, branding those who are aware of them as "silly" and blaming them for patriarchal condescension.

My hormones trigger migraines and pain in my hip and leg twice a month. The hormones don't really affect my mood, but the pain sure puts a bit of a damper on things.

Hormones don't control your voice box or muscle control to do or say something stupid.
That is very ignorant thing to say .Like most other medical problem you do get extremes and some people are really affected badly. Depression affects Men very differently to women, they are more likely to present with anger rather sadness, create conflict , dont visit doctors and self medicate and more likely to successfully commit suicide.

I have adhd. If anyone knows about doing stupid impulsive shit, believe me, it's me. However, it does not absolve me from personal responsibility.

ADHD might make me interrupt. But instead of saying "Oh I have adhd, which totally excuses my rude behavior" I say "Oh, sorry you were talking. What were you saying?". One means taking personal responsibility. One means making excuses and disregarding how your actions are affecting other people.

Saying you're hormonal instead of "Sorry I snapped at you" is less than impressive.

I'm amazed at the amount of women who say they snap at their dh/dp over the smallest things when they're feeling hormonal. Does this not constitute emotional abuse against the dh/dp? A lot of you say that your hormones don't affect your ability to, for example, do a job professionally as you can control them as necessary. So why can't the same women control their hormones when interacting with their dp/dh, rather than using their dh/dp as an emotional punch bag? Why is it ok, or even possible, to control the hormones at work but not at home?

this just reads like WOMEN SHUT UP ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCES to me.

after all you don't hear men complaining about pms or pnd or menopause err no you don't because they are female experiences.

who said equality equalled having to pretend to be male and deny everything that is exclusive to the female experience?

this thread really made me feel quite pissed off that women are berating women for female experiences and daring to mention them. not to mention the use of the word 'excuse'!

i suggest a biology lesson would be useful too for understanding the fundamental role that hormones do play in the entire functioning of your body and brain. no men don't 'go on about it' so much because their lives are not subject to such massive hormonal events as women's ffs.

oh and you don't hear men blaming their less than ideal behaviours that are due to their maleness on their hormones because they're not even EXPECTED to explain themselves or apologise for their maleness because people like the OP see that as HUMAN behaviour and normal and to be emulated by everyone who wants to be allowed at the grown up table.

It's wrong to use this as an excuse for bad behaviour or shoddy work. I think the majority of the time I see it here it's fairly light hearted........
In my own situation I do use it occasionally to justify uncharacteristic weepiness.....It's not debilitating or "an issue" but I can't deny that it is a fact of life...regular as clockwork the day I'm due on, I have a day where I'm irrationally weepy, and cry at the most stupid things.

So if OH catches me in the paddock in floods of years because the sunset is so pretty then yes, I will call hormones.

However, totally unacceptable to consistently blame hormones for twatty behaviour. If you have enough of an issue with uncontrolled behaviour at certain times of the month, please seek medical help for it, I have a friend who lived for years with a combination of pain and unbearable mood swings, and used the "hormones" excuse every time she was vile or hurtful. Finally she sought medical help and has suddenly realised life didn't have to be like that!

I agree with the op that the flippant use of the hormonal excuse at work does women no favours. I have heard it used at work and also 'pregnancy brain'

That's not to say I think its wrong to brush all this under the carpet, just be mindful of the context.

I have never heard middle aged men at work blame the 'male menopause' as the reason they have bought a motorbike or left their wife for a younger woman.

I also feel very, very disappointed when female comedians do stand up routines about women and hormones.

Well, quite, Honey.
If you want to be a bitch be one without explaining it away with hormones.
The thread is about women who undermine other women's experiences by making a mockery of those experiences.
If I have bad problems due to hormones, but other women claim the same issue with hormones when they hardly suffer, people will tend to think my problems are also not serious at all.
But another point is that if you do suffer badly, then seek help. Don't just moan about it.

"What puts feminism back is women being told to keep their PMS or Menopausal symptoms to themselves like they are something to be ashamed or embarrassed about."

^^ Agree with this and frankly wish we did all bloody agree that hormones do change things and should perhaps be monitored and understood and (yes) occasionally excused more.

I hate the "we need to show we're identical to men" approach to feminism. Bodies are annoyingly disruptive sometimes. That doesn't give blokes the right to eye roll and say "that time of the month" of course, but it doesn't mean that you can just dismiss many women's experiences because they're inconvenient. And men can definitely have hormone swings too, my DH has a bit of a pattern.

As for the "have some control" comments, or "seek help", as with all these things it's not always that easy and it's incredibly insulting and reductive. It's only since TTCing that I've realised the way hormones affect me - when else would you note symptoms day in day out for months on end? And they do bloody affect me: when I'm in their grip it seems absolutely real and nothing can really dissuade me from feeling things. When they're gone I'm a reasonably level human being again

But that apparently means that women can't be equal to men, or that I should take drugs to suppress my body's natural rhythms.

There should be more room for understanding and sympathy and solutions on a bloody forum like Mumsnet, and fewer blanket statements dismissing women who are inconvenient.

In the time I was writing that, honeys post appeared, and I agree.

this just reads like WOMEN SHUT UP ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCES to me.

Well then you are taking it the wrong way. No one has said 'shut up', they have said hormones can't be blamed for treating people badly and shut a conversation. Also that it belittles other women who are truly suffering. If someone shouts at someone and says 'I am sorry I shouldn't have done that, I feel a bit hormonal and I snapped, but I shouldn't have done' I would have as much of an issue with it. And as a manager I would support that person in dealing with the issues.

Simply shrugging off bad behaviour with 'I am hormonal!' In an attempt to justify it is not ok.

The company this happens in support workers completely. I have known them pay for rehab for employees ( 3 times for one particular lady, who unfortunately never over came her drinking and collapsed and passed away at work a few months after her last stint), pay for private medical appointments etc. One driver got done for drink driving. Instead of sacking him, like the contract said, they got him a job in the office until he got his license back and paid for therapy and completely supported him as he was an ex solider and was suffering ptsd. We would do the same for a women who truly felt her hormones/family stress etc were effecting her. It's not a heartless company, with heartless managers. We certainly don't tell women or men to shut up about their experiences. We do expect people to treat other people in a decent manner and if they can't will help them tackle the reason. But when the reason is an excuse and not a cause, it's dealt with.