To feel it is high time that Israel/Palestinian issue got resolved?

[SippyDippy]

conflict us starting up again. I cannot bear another round of children being killed indiscriminately. The super powers would have you believe that it is all oh so very complicated. its not though is it. It is so bloody unfair how those children will keep dying if the status quo is maintained. Something needs to change.

If we agree to that hampsterdam then in effect we are saying the Palestinians do not deserve a homeland. If we said this to Israelis we'd be labelled anti Semitic.

I'd like the apologists to tell us whether or not they believe Palestinians deserve their own state.

I'm ok with the use of some forms of violence to resist colonisation. Just...call me squeamish if you need to...I'm not ok with cutting the heads of babies, or taking a car and an axe to a priest, or knifing two parents to death in front of their kids. That isn't legitimate resistance to me. It's depravity.

What kind of violence is 'legitimate'?

Home - Is it less squeamish for 50 Palestinian kids to be beheaded or blown to pieces by a missile or shot from a distance by a bullet from an AK47 than it is for 1 baby knifed to death? I do know what you mean but I'm not sure it really makes a difference. I think we need to rethink what kind of killing is more acceptable than another.

So what's the 'insurance policy' for the millions of non-Jewish people who were also targeted in WW2 and by vicious right wing regimes since (for looking Jewish, defending Jews, being another swarthy minority, left wing, protestant, poor, whatever)? Because right now what we see is exactly the same forces lining up for a repeat of the war in which our families were also decimated and stolen from and prominent thinktanks with mainly Jewish members only too happy to goad us into invading the Middle East. Which begs the question. If there is this level of collusion now, was it also the case then too just to get Israel established?

Fiat banking. It's just the same old crap over and over. This is all about the lebensraum and establishing master-slave society, not self-defence.

Ok, just to clarify...I do not wish for Israel to cease to exist. Despite all the atrocities and grave crimes against humanity that their government has committed, I still do not want them wiped out the way they continue to try and wipe out the Palestine. I wish a 2 state solution would work, but let's face it, israel does not want that. Why would they settle for less when they can usurp more?
Oh, and most definitely the Palestinian right to return. Why should Any jew have a right to 'return' when they have never set foot in That region ever before, but a displaced Palestinian be denied this right? Or are jewish people worthy of more rights than Arabs? The Israeli law obviously thinks so. And to think they like to celebrate and applaud themselves for being a free and forward thinking democracy!

Excellent post mimi,

There is and always has been a well thought out agenda, which is being carefully executed.

When have the Palestinians ever had a country/state?

This issue will never go away. Its far too ingrained in the cultures of each side. I believe it will get out hand one day though. The Middle East is brewing a big war soon unfortunately i think. So many different fractions involved in the whole Middle East region.

When did Israeli army start enjoying committing war crimes and wearing crimes against humanity as a badge of honour?

caroldecker - I'll ask again: do you believe the Palestinians deserve their own state? or do you want the Israeli government to proceed with its policy of ethnic cleansing and ghettoization?

If your answers are a) No and b) Yes, (which I suspect they are - prove me wrong,)then that makes you a racist. It means your attitude is akin to that of the Nazis towards the Jews in WW2. More and more people are making the comparison. How does that make you feel?

caroldecker I'd be quite careful using that as an argument. Think about it....

I suspect that the poster calling themselves caroldecker is one of those crazed Ultra-Zionists like the one interviewed on channel 4 news last week who said that "The Bible tells us" it's perfectly ok to attack and persecute Paletinians and throw them off their land "because it was prophecied".

Is that a fitting description of you carol? does the Bible tell you it's a Good Thing to be a racist?

News today that areas of Jerusalem annexed off with checkpoints for Palestinians. Some checkpoints I can understand but I imagine this won't be temporary but the start of a permanent arrangement to further infringe on their human rights. So
No free movement for any Palestinian in Jerusalem.

Also anyone who has attacked an Israeli is to have their home destroyed and removed from Jerusalem regardless of who else is in the home. Obv the attacker will be dead. So families once again thrown out and displaced. Where will they go I wonder?

I think Saudi prefers to keep the problem going. It is in their interest to. Saudi is rich enough to build several states for the Palestinians but prefers to leave them in refugee camps so that the Israelis cannot claim 'their' land.
Then rich American Israeli supporters fund/train Israeli fighters. Don't know if this is true but I cannot see how a tiny country like Israel can fund it's army/ housebuilding/ etc etc.

So everything is being funded from different factions outwith the area so I don't think you can do anything.

^Is that a fitting description of you carol? does the Bible tell you it's a Good Thing to be a racist?

Having seen quite a lot of caroldecker's other posts, I strongly suspect she's a champion of property rights. I wonder what the difference in this case.

Bambambini, intent matters in morality. Of course it does. It's the difference between mudar and manslaughter. Deliberate actsare much more reprehensible than accidental or negligent acts.

Shooting a teenage stone thrower is not the same morally as decapitating a baby. Both are bad, and the latter is much much worse than the former.

If this is something you genuinely think needs to be rethought through, I'm done here, because your idea of what is good and bad in the world is too different to mine.

Crystalgall, you say: "Also anyone who has attacked an Israeli is to have their home destroyed and removed from Jerusalem regardless of who else is in the home. Obv the attacker will be dead. So families once again thrown out and displaced. Where will they go I wonder?" (My emphasis)

This demonstrates very vividly that you have preconceptions of Israeli venality that are so strong, they lead you to make assumptions that are directly at odds with the facts.

Egosumquisum linked to a report in the Indepedent, in her post directly preceding yours, which describes a day of violence in the region. The very first story it tells is of an Israeli being stabbed at a bus stop, who fights off his attacker, a Palestinian. The attacker is subdued and held by passersby until the police arrive. He is not lynched or shot. So it is not at all "obvious the attacker will be dead".

People seem so damn set on clinging to a single simple narrative:

• Israel bad, Palestinians good
• vice versa
• a plague on both your houses

Surely it is painfully obvious that none of these gives justice to the suffering?

Oh ok sorry. Is that all you got out of that then? Not obviously dead. What's that got to do with the familia and homes. When someone murders in the UK do we just bulldoze their house and put them on th street. I haven't got that bit of the narrative wrong have I?

Yes, that's all I got out of what you said.

I knew about the other stuff and have my opinion as to its morality (I think it's immoral). But the new thing for me, was seeing so clearly how you are invested in telling one particular story such that you end up at odds with the facts.

It's unfortunately easy to gain the impression that Israel treats the value of Palestinian lives as very cheap, and as an official policy. They are now allowing live fire on stone throwers (which surely is a legitimate form of protest?), which has already resulted in multiple deaths. It's basically a licence for summary execution.
Guardian link

Palestinians in the West Bank are petrified at present. The recent spate of knife attacks have left them feeling that it's open season on them, that they can be shot on little or no pretext, and as I said yesterday, there are already reports of this happening.
It's all too easy, in a situation where there is little or no sanction for killing, to shoot someone and claim it was to prevent another knife attack or similar. The dead Palestinian and their family will have no legal recourse, the shooter will face no blame.

Shooting a teenage stone thrower is not the same morally as decapitating a baby. Both are bad, and the latter is much much worse than the former.

Or burning a baby alive as in the settler attacks on Palestinian homes. Both equally despicable so
I'm not saying one side is better than the other for killing babies.

www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

Shooting dead a 13 yr old child is not negligent or accidental btw. It's a pretty deliberate act and morally reprehensible. There are atories like this all the time and not all in mainstream media

Oh and especially when the child in question wasn't actually throwing any stones.