To feel it is high time that Israel/Palestinian issue got resolved?

[SippyDippy]

conflict us starting up again. I cannot bear another round of children being killed indiscriminately. The super powers would have you believe that it is all oh so very complicated. its not though is it. It is so bloody unfair how those children will keep dying if the status quo is maintained. Something needs to change.

Elly - do are you also saying like Sippy that Israel should cease to exist?

Slaggy, do you see though why
From the river to the sea
Palestine will be free
might lead some Jews to conclude that at least some anti-Zionists are anti-Semites? It wipes Israel entirely off the map.

Elly - do are you also saying like Sippy that Israel should cease to exist?

Bambambini, it's like this. I support the right of any group to form their own state (someone's trying to form a libertarian state right now in the Balkans) so long as they respect property rights of the existing inhabitants.

"Tiny children are being dismembered". Do you mean as a result of bombs? Or are you saying soldiers were doing this with knives and guns?

Because the only knife attack I know of that involved dismemberment was when two Palestinians cut the head off a six month old Israeli child.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_attack

Home that's appalling but I could just as easily sit here and list settler attacks on Palestinians like the recent burning to death of the baby.

This doesn't alter the fact of the larger-scale injustice that is being carried out.

Or, the fact that 20 Palestinian children die for every 1 Israeli child.

LumelaMme yes I can see why it would be construed that way.
But I'm not sure how that justifies in any way Israel's behaviour. For one thing, the continued expansion of the settlements is a pretty provocative act and doesn't point to a leadership with any sort of appetite for peaceful resolution to the current situation.
I don't understand why they can't agree to go back to the 1967 borders. Because that's already a lot more land than they were meant to have in the first place.

Slaggy Island - there's been very little expansion of the settlements recently, and in any event, for those people who hope for Palestine "from the river to the sea" even Tel Aviv is a settlement.

A settlement, however ill-advised, is also reversible, unlike killings. Israel has previously returned land for peace, and there's no reason to think they can't do so again.

I'm picking up on your use of the phrase "tiny children are being dismembered". It didn't seem to fit the facts. And the facts matter: Israelis haven't been dismembering children with knives and guns. Dismemberment requires a particular level of savagery. One group of Israelis did act with equal savagery when they burnt to death Ali Saad Dawabsheh, the baby you referred to. But this personal, face-to-face, savagery has not typified Israeli attacks on Palestinians. There is the larger injustice instead, as you point out.

I think we have now reached a tipping point of depravity among those Palestinians who attack, who are choosing knives and cars and axes and attacking everyone, including babies, children and the elderly. This article that I read this morning seems grimly appropriate.

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-violence

Home the pictures I saw last year during the Gaza attack were of dismembered children and babies. Does it really matter if it was done by bombs rather than knives? Should I have said "blown to mince meat"?

I think we have now reached a tipping point of depravity among those Palestinians who attack, who are choosing knives and cars and axes and attacking everyone, including babies, children and the elderly. This article that I read this morning seems grimly appropriate.

I'm not sure what anyone expects. This is what happens when you colonise a people. They do whatever it takes to survive.

Just remember everyone Palestinian babies are not as important as Israeli ones. Palestinians are 'depraved' and Israelis are just defending themselves when they shoot dead children throwing stones.

"I think we have now reached a tipping point of depravity among those Palestinians who attack, who are choosing knives and cars and axes and attacking everyone, including babies, children and the elderly."

Home - does it matter what way they are horribly killed. The Israelis have the technology to do it the "nice" less blood on your hands way - the Palestinians use what crude methods they have access to. Does it really make a difference - dead people are dead people. There are still a lot more dead Palestinian children than Israeli children. Both sides continue to dehumanise themselves and each other.

Saggy, your use of the term made me think you had heard of attacks by Israelis using knives. So I asked. Had you said blown up, I wouldn't have asked.

Elly, I disagree that this is inevitably what happens when you colonise a people, and I disagree profoundly with the idea that acts such as these help anyone survive, either individuals or people. There are many colonised peoples who have found other ways to resist than knife attacks on civilians.

Crystalgall, I don't know why you conclude that I think one type of baby is different from another in its intrinsic importance and worth. I do think that some types of killing are more depraved than another, and I'd put both decapitating an infant and burning an infant waaaay above shooting at stone throwers on the depravity stakes. I'd put deliberately targeting children above negligently killing children, too. I see degrees of horror, and I think the degrees of horror matter. I also think the number of deaths matter. I think the scale of Palestinian deaths in Gaza and the West Bank hugely outstrips the scale of Israeli deaths. And I think the scale and horror of the killing of Palestinians in Syria vastly, vastly, outstrips the killing in Gaza and the West Bank.

My view is best summarised by this statement released by B'Tselem:

"In view of mounting violence, B’Tselem expresses its deep shock at the contempt for human life and strongly censures it; while individuals are responsible for their own particular actions, the government bears responsibility for the reality of the Occupation
The Occupation is now in its 49th year. Recent weeks have seen dozens of horrific attacks on Israelis by Palestinians. Israeli government officials have been calling explicitly to “shoot to kill”; hundreds of Palestinians have been injured and several killed in demonstrations. B’Tselem reiterates its condemnation of attacks against civilians. The government sees the current violence as an eruption of hatred that occurred in a vacuum, while rejecting any responsibility of its own for the situation. Yet recent events cannot be viewed in isolation from the ongoing oppression of 4 million people."

I agree with that statement too, Slaggy

Yes, the Israelis have to take account of their own actions in this mess. Non of the crap that is being carried out by both sides occurs in a vacuum - but they always have to blame each other.

Elly, I disagree that this is inevitably what happens when you colonise a people, and I disagree profoundly with the idea that acts such as these help anyone survive, either individuals or people. There are many colonised peoples who have found other ways to resist than knife attacks on civilians.

Home, how would you react if you were colonised?

Please name one colonised nation that did not react to their oppression with violence?

Ok, so what is you solution? For the coloniser to leave? For Israel to cease to exist and the whole area to go back to being Palestine? Seems that is what some are saying but skirting round actually saying it.

You are allowed to have those views but if that is what you man and would like to see happen then just say it and let people know where you stand.

I favour a two state solution with perhaps Israel withdrawing any settlements that the Palestininas have a problem with and retreating to 1967 borders.

2 state solution. 1967 borders

Xpost. Me tkl

Me too.

Back to the green line.
Palestinians need to stop holding our for right of return regardless of the rights and wrongs it's never going to happen.