To feel it is high time that Israel/Palestinian issue got resolved?

[SippyDippy]

conflict us starting up again. I cannot bear another round of children being killed indiscriminately. The super powers would have you believe that it is all oh so very complicated. its not though is it. It is so bloody unfair how those children will keep dying if the status quo is maintained. Something needs to change.

you know not the motives of any of the assailants. Maybe they have been enticed by promises of eternal paradise? Maybe the celebration if murder and martyrs? I heard the 13 year old Palestinian boy had been promised lego.

By the way, rock throwing is not some harmless pastime. Just a few weeks ago, a rock was thrown on a car in Jerusalem and caused the death of the driver. The rock throwers weren't shot. They were caught by police. They have been charges with manslaughter not murder although if you throw a rock on a moving car, kind of obvious you might kill someone...

Perhaps if I were Palestinian I would question what violence has achieved for me and whether my life would have been better improved had my leaders not rejected the peace deals offered under Barak and Olmert

Shak, if only you were Palestinian, then perhaps you would see what it is like to live in the grip of terror every day. Perhaps you would realise that the power that illegally occupies your people does not consider you human enough to be given any human rights. Perhaps then you would realise what it means to be In the grip of fear 24/7. perhaps then you would then see that if your child picks up a stone, the occupying army will shoot to kill your child.

But then again shak, maybe you would take the moral high ground and even as a palestinian, you may accept that you have to pay the price for other people's actions. So when your teenage son went and hit an israeli, maybe you would accept that he should be shot for injuring an israeli. Maybe you would be accepting of having your home bulldozed and you being kicked out. Maybe you would be happy not to have your child's body back, so you cant give him a burial. You would be content in the knowledge that the occupying force is safely tucked up in bed at night whilst you ae homeless.
Yep, if only you were a palestinian shak. If only.

Umm, no, I think I'd still want my leaders to tell me why they refused the peace deals which were offered and which offered a real chance to end the occupation.

I certainly thank anyone for offering to fight Israel until the last Palestinian child.

Not sure why you think that you speak for the Palestinians or have any more insight into their lives than anyone else. Having lived and worked in Jerusalem for many years, having had an Israeli-Palestinian boss for many years while working there, having Palestinian friends, I don't know many who would say what you wrote. I think they'd be quite insulted, it's quite patronizing. A bit of orientalism going on there I think....

I used to take a very black and white view of the conflict until I briefly moved to Israel for work when I was 19. Until then I'd always seen Israelis as the evil oppressors - in fact I remember semi-seriously joking with friends before I left that they were going to try and brainwash me with propaganda while I was there - but living there completely changed my view. Suddenly 'Israelis' weren't just violent fanatics who thought God had gifted them a few thousand square miles of sand - they were people like me who went clubbing and bitched about their bosses and worried about boyfriends and rocket attacks and how long it would take Iran to get hold of nuclear weapons. I never went to Palestine, but it would probably have been a similar revelation - that the people there weren't so different from me, anyway, although obviously their day to day lives wouldn't be nearly the same.

People can say that Israel brings the attacks on itself, but the people who are killed aren't 'Israel', they're ordinary people trying to go about their ordinary lives. No-one here - I hope - would say the victims of 9/11 or the 7/7 bombings deserved to die because of the actions of the governments they (may or may not have) voted for, and the same principle applies. Likewise, you can't dismiss the oppression and murder of Palestinians by saying it's necessary to prevent other people they happen to share a nationality with from committing terrorist attacks. The people who are suffering aren't countries, they're individuals, who happen to live in a region dominated by political forces thy have little control over. Maybe some of them are terrible people who deserve everything they have coming to them, but the vast vast majority aren't.

It must be frightening sometimes to live in Israel, and living in Palestine must be unimaginably more so all of the time. Much easier for us to sit in safety here in the UK, without fear of rocket attacks or restrictions on our basic rights, and say 'this side is right, this side is wrong, here's what should be done about it'. But it's almost irrelevant who's more to blame - as long as there are people who genuinely believe they are 100% in the right, blanket condemnation from outside is only going to drive them further into that mentality, regardless of the reality of the situation. You see the same thing in this country - the media tries to discredit UKIP, or Corbyn, and all it does is increase their popularity by 'proving' there's a conspiracy against them.

If people really care about bringing peace to the region then maybe, instead of loudly declaring from thousands of miles away that they know everything about the situation and how to resolve it, they should shut up and listen to the people on both sides who are actually there living it every day. How can anyone begin to come up with a solution without even trying to understand why people act the way they do? It's a lot messier than painting one side as innocent victims and the other as evil oppressors or terrorists, but it's the only way any kind of real progress is ever going to be made.

I agree with you Laurie. Both sides have legitimate claims and legitimate grievances against the other. There is no black and white just many many shades of grey.

That's funny. I lived in israel for a short period years ago. I've been to the West Bank. I spent time with Palestinians in Jerusalem where i stayed with them and worked for them. They awere lovely people and their plight really touched me. I also lived amongst and worked with israelis. This is why i also dont think it's black and white. I can undestand where both sides are coming, see the infuriating mistakes and ingrained fear and mistrust that keeps this conflict going.

Great post Laurie.

This whole thread is a joke.

People who know nothing pontificating from thousands of miles away.

Lots of ludicrous assumptions here that just decrease the likelihood of a peaceful solution ever being found - peace will only happen when people on both sides acknowledge the humanity - which includes understandable fears and worries - of BOTH sides. Demonising ordinary families on either side is NEVER the solution.

The fact that there are violent nutters on both sides does not mean that everyone on either side is a violent nutter - we should be marginalising those people not excusing them or pretending they speak for everyone.

Whilst one response to fear is to react with violent attacks, it is patronising in the assume to claim that is the only possible or best approach. My family were decimated by the Nazis - I have NEVER had the slightest urge to go and kill or attack Germans as a result, however 'understandable' or 'natural' some on here apparently think that would be, and the world would not be a better place if I did!!

What the situation needs is jaw-jaw, not war-war, to quote Churchill.

Just looked at a few maps of the land that was Palestine and now is Israel and how that has changed since the UN partition . Purely from a geographical perspective I could see why Palestinians would be angry . How you can reach any kind of settlement without returning large chunks of land I am not sure ? Also I can understand not wanting to return land that borders countries that are openly hostile to Israel if I were Israeli purely from a survival point of view . So until all is well in Syria, Iraq , Lebanon etc I cannot see any peaceful or long term solution .

But there never was a Palestinian state and it was the Arabs who rejected partition. You cant reject it, start a war, lose and then say 'ok, let's pretend we agreed and didn't start a war'. Although honestly that was never even proposed, the aim was (and still is for many) always openly Israel's destruction

And if you're looking at maps, look at how Jordan was carved out of british mandatory Palestine.

To play devils advocate, why is Jordan not the elusive Palestinian state?

Well, they weren't exactly nice to the Jews in Europe throughout the years either.

Great post Laurie.
I disagree with most pro palestine supporters being anti semitic. As a pro palestine activist that's not my experience at all, yes there are some anti semites in the ranks but by no means most. Being pro palestine doesn't make you anti isreal, I want peace for both, the way things are going now is damaging isreal and I 100% believe a two state solution is the only just outcome for both sides. There are many many individual Jews and Jewish groups who support the Palestinians.
This is not about religion for me as frankly I believe all religions are as ridiculous as each other and I don't care who's imaginary sky god said what 2000 years ago. For me this is about what's right and wrong, which both exist on both sides.

I'm terrified that the bombing will begin again, and there'll be more "collateral damage" ie hundreds of dead children.

So why even define yourself as a 'pro Palestinian activist' who happens not to be anti Israeli.

Why not just be a peace activist who wants the best for both peoples in this tiny bit of land? That's how I'd define myself.

Saying you're pro one side does kind of insinuate you're against the other.

The fundamental problem, Shakshuka, is that while some people on here will claim that what they want is a peaceful two state solution, what they actually want is a one state solution (a Muslim Palestine and all Israelis dead/expelled). At heart, they will never view a millimetre of what they view as Palestinian soil as legitimately belonging to Israel. The irony of the fact that they regard Israeli extremists who feel the same way in reverse as guilty of apartheid does not trouble them - they don't see their own hypocrisy.

The political reality is that the area is divided in two and Israel was set up by the UN. Either that reality is recognised and then finer points of borders etc can be negotiated peacefully - or it is not, and the only alternative is war. Might is right has been a time-honoured way of settling boundary disputes, but you're ridiculous if you can imagine that approach is not going to involve some loss of life. Either accept the status quo and talk - or refuse it. But you can't then reasonably complain that there are soldiers with guns.

Personally, I find the whole assumption that any people has some sort of inelienable 'right' to a patch of ground, that exists outside of international law, a bit odd. Borders change all the time - look at any historical map. The idea that because a border existed in 1967 - or 1867- or 867 - it must therefore exist now, seems crazy to me. My family's home for hundreds of years was in Prussia. Over time, this has veered from being part of the Holy Roman Empire, to an independent state, to part of the greater German Reich - and it's now in Poland. All the Germans who had also lived there for hundreds of years and who my grandfather grew up with, were expelled after the second world war and the territory given to Poles. I've been to the village/small town my family come from - it still has the Catholic Church and even the ruins of the former synagogue - but the Protestant Church that used to stand at the other end of the high street has completely vanished and the German Protestants who used to live there completely airbrushed from history. Poles live in the house that used to belong to my family. We got no compensation. Nor did any of the other German residents. Shit happens, things change. The border is where it is. I don't hate Poles and I don't imagine most Germans do either.

Why are Israeli borders required to be fixed according to some specific historic reality when no-one else's are?

Maybe it's particularly hard for British people to understand because we're an island so our borders are fixed by nature. British people need to understand that in most other countries, borders do change. It's normal. What matters is that the rule of law is upheld over existing borders. Because if you don't do that, then the only alternative is war. And that IS going to involve loss of life. And yes, some of that is going to be on the side you support. And if you're pontificating from the UK, it's not going to be your loss of life.

So really, people who live here should stop ignoring the political realities there, and demanding other people die to fit their bizarre concept of how they'd like the map to fit a particular preferred historical reality.

Because Palestinians are being illigally occupied and oppressed and I want that to stop. The only way there will be peace is if the Palestinians are given rights and justice. Being pro one side doesn't make you anti the other. Anti apartheid activists were pro black people having rights and equality doesn't mean they were anti white people.

Israel wasn't set up by the un.

I want the occupation to stop too. I still wouldn't define myself as pro-palestinian, just pro-peace, pro a better place for everyone living there. Just like you could be anti-apartheid but you wouldn't go around saying you're pro-black because that would insinuate anti-white.

But let's not kid ourselves that the conflict is only about occupation. The Palestinians have had a number of opportunities to end the occupation and move to a two-state solution. They refused to do so.

Clearly the conflict is more intractable than just occupation. Indeed, until 1967 there was no occupation, was there peace?

There is no more inherent logic in Hamas' position (it all belongs to a Palestinian state) than there is in the settlers' position (it all belongs to an Israeli state). They are both equally logical/illogical. And equally 'racist' or 'apartheid', to use the emotive terms that are often used to describe one side only.

In terms of international law, they are both equally wrong.

I don't get how people on this thread can imagine that one side is 'good' and one side is 'bad'. To me, the 'good' people on BOTH sides are those who see those on the other side as people and actually talk to them - the 'bad' people are those on both sides who encourage those on their side to hate, who dehumanise the other side and encourage violence. These people are the reason there is no peace. Some people on this thread need to seriously consider if they are part of the solution or the problem. This is not the playground - 'but he started it' or 'it was mine first' may be true but international law is the only 'teacher' who can step in and resolve that, and if you're comfortable with ignoring that authority, then there will be war and people will get hurt.

But not you. So that's OK. Just some worthy brown people in a country far away.

If its antisemitic to be pro palestine, so what about Jews for Justice and other jewish people who really disagree with Israel's war crimes? They too antisemitic? Can't see logic in this.
Also, if you're jewish, but born in, lets say, Russia, then your homeland is Russia, not Palestine.

Who is saying it is anti-Semitic to be pro-Palestine, Nataleejah? I can't see anyone on this thread saying that.

You appear to be arguing with a straw man.

Thank god for social media. Finally the plight of the Palestinians and the sheer evil of the Israeli military and leadership is exposed. So so so many people can see video footage and testimonies from both sides and the BDS movement has never been stronger. I've visited Israel and seen the actions of settlers who are more armed than the IDF, and who spend alltheir time finding Arabs to kill (Muslim or Christian it doesn't matter). The situation is barbaric. I could never step for in that place again whilst the occupation continues.

But I doubt the situation will ever be resolved on the ground. Public opinion however has moved so quickly in the last decade that I hope at least in generations to come things might change.