They're not refugees, we're being invaded

[goonthenflameme]

I admit, the Syrians have got it bad. There is a war and those boys who haven't been shot by ISIL are being conscripted by the President.

But if life is that bad, why do they only want to go to Germany and if they can't go then then they'll go back to Syria.

Why are we now seeing people from Kazakstan joining the throngs?

I agree that people from Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria need help. But the thougsands and thousands of people coming through can't all be refugees in dire need of help if they are so picky as to where they will live.

They're invading Europe. And we are letting them. What's going to happen in 20 years? Will Christianity and western ways be swept under the carpet?

If you visit any big city in Turkey you will see Turkish women going freely about their lives wearing a whole variety of clothing from the full burkha to mini skirts and vest tops.
There is much wrong with modern Turkey but the oppression of women isn't part of it.
My son is married to a Turkish woman and my 16 year old granddaughter has lived there all her life. Oppressed she is not!
Sorry...back to the thread.
Immigration must be both compassionate and controlled and I hope so much that a way can be found to facilitate this as much of Syria is no longer fit for decent human beings and most are you know. The ISIL terrorists are a minority of twisted, power mad, wicked people who need to be stopped so that, eventually, Syrians can be helped to reclaim their country and go home. In the meantime they need refuge and all the help we can give.

For those posters who are comparing la know of integration with Brits in Spain etc. While some Brits may be insular and certainly unpleasant in their insistence of all things English in a foreign country. Wanting to eat fish and chips and full English all the time and whinging about no one speaking the language is far more harmless and innocuous than insisting on forced marriage, FGM, 4 males witnesses in a report of rape, covering up all of a women except a mesh slit for the eyes, advocating death for anyone who challenges or satirises their religion.

If they were all syrians fleeing a war it would be easier to help them, the trouble is so many more of them are coming from other countries that are not at war so have to be assumed they have no right to asylum.

A lot of them have fought and demanded their way across Europe to get to where they want to be which is mainly Germany, what are they going to do when they are told they have been allocated another country they have no desire to be in. I don't think they will go peacefully and settle happily in these countries.

If you go to Tower Hamlets or parts of Birmingham or Burnley, or wherever there are large settled communities of Muslims you will find that local government is often largely dominated by Muslims because they vote in people they perceive to have their interests at heart and who can represent their needs and wants

We have a largely white, loosely Christian government now because we are a mostly white, loosely Christian society now. When that changes and the see-saw starts to level out and eventually tip, so will the shape of how we are governed, first at a local level and then at a national level. You don't need to have a degree in PPE to work that one out

This. and it terrifies me

Europe is a relatively small land mass. It can't fit all the people who might like to come here "for a better life." I think, "for a better life" means for better economic prospects and security. I actually don't think most people come for the weather, food, culture or even freedom. It's materially motivated. I don't find that motivation immoral. After all, Anglo Saxons settled North America and Australia for the same reasons. However, we all know how that worked out for the native Americans and native Australians. Perhaps that informs our unease?

It certainly makes doing anything about the root causes of the migration impossible. All the colonial guilt, makes any meaningful interference in troubled regions politically untenable.

The only real answer is to improve the governance in the places that people are leaving. Most of these countries are poor and miserable because of an extractive elite that exploits and hinders the general population. We've tried military interventions, and those have made things worse. We've tried giving aid, but we've learned a lot of it is either outright stolen or misused. Any meaningful change would require getting involved in the actual administration of another country. I just don't think we have the moral confidence given our history to do it.

So, I think we will keep budging over, making a little more room for the strongest who demand it, and trying to make nice, and every now and then offering a little sop to the truly weak. sh.

" Will Christianity and western ways be swept under the carpet? "

Would those be the 'Western ways' that led to this crisis then?

It is completely rational for ?women to be concerned about an influx of men from a culture which we know to be more sexist and misogynistic than our own culture.

These men will be highly resistant to our way of thinking. ?
? Shouting 'racist' is just a crude technique to try and score points in a debate

Lamination There are plenty of racists on this thread. It is an unpleasant read

The notion that sexism and harassment cannot be challenged because they are committed by a non-ethnic European is highly dangerous to half the population.

Are you suggesting that those from a misogynistic culture, which by law requires women to have lesser value than a man, prohibits her from driving or working, encourages her not to leave the home and to be subservient, are no less likely to have similar attitudes to women than a British male? Note that I say British and not white. I know many non-white British males who do not hold these views and who are not in the least sexist.

BlueJug I was describing my experiences in Roth, a town near Nurnberg. A very pleasant place, with a lovely town centre with a fountain and market square. Where you no longer wanted to linger during the day due to the abuse by certain men. This was 10-12 years ago so its probably worse now.

www.independent.co.uk/?CMP=ILC-refresh#

I have assumed that the majority of people want to come and live in our liberal society - not re-create the oppressive regimes that they are fleeing.

The notion that sexism and harassment cannot be challenged because they are committed by a non-ethnic European is highly dangerous to half the population.

Agree whole heartedly. Where women's rights and multiculturalism collide, my interests lie with women's rights.

They are not 'invading', they are 'escaping'.

And 'Christianity' is not, in my opinion, something worth preserving - the Christian right are illiberal and entirely lacking in compassion.

" There are plenty of racists on this thread "

That is such a typical leftie reaction - anyone who questions the present mass immigration is branded a 'racist' and bang there you go, debate closed.

Woodifer your link isn't working.

I actually think people come for material gain, not for the culture. (Same as Westerns working is SaudiArabia for example. The vast majority put up with the local culture because they want the money.)

Lamination Maybe there are racists on this thread and as you have said there are racists in all communities. I don't think that you can tell from what has been said here whether someone is racist or not.

I also don't think it helps the discussion of what is a horrible mess as Snakesandbastards said.

Part of the problem is the label.

I work with a huge range of races and nationalities. I have lived in other countries. My DD's boyfriend is black - are these non-racist "credentials"? I say that I was harrassed by North Africans. I say that I am concerned about the clash between Muslim values and UK secular values... that could be considered racist. Most of the time, like most people, (especially living in London), I don't think twice about someone's race. This is a different situation.

I think many of us here are trying to square what we feel with how we think we should feel and that is hard.

It's about a lack of practical compassion as well as racism

Some of us lefties are concerned about the impact on this countries workers, shared infrastructure and post religious values.

Whatever compassion our ideology compels us to entertain, real socialism is as much about iron-hard pragmatism as any right wing ideology.

It is possible to simultaneously be sad for the plight of refugees while concerned about the impact of their migration on the most vulnerable in our society, whether that's women and children or those economically worse off.

Suzanne These men will be highly resistant to our way of thinking. ?
? Shouting 'racist' is just a crude technique to try and score points in a debate

I often wonder if the people who do that have never had much life experience of living independently away from home. I honestly cringe when I read from some posters, as I have done on mumsnet, that I "must never have known any Muslims" or whatever. At the age of 19 I was sharing student accommodation with a mixed international group that included 3 Muslims. I've worked outside the UK, again sharing houses with a variety of nationalities. But according to some person on mumsnet who has probably never lived more than 25 miles from their home town, I don't have any relevant experience.

And 'Christianity' is not, in my opinion, something worth preserving - the Christian right are illiberal and entirely lacking in compassion.

To sweep all of Christianity away because you don't like the Christian right, is a bit like saying that all Muslims are terrorist because of IS.

I think most of us have suffered street harassment by men. In my case it has been overwhelmingly by white British men. More recently, it was by a group of white French men on the London Underground. I suspect that the problem is men, rather than Muslims per se.

such irony would be lost on a poster like that Heighho

Agree meph, not just lefties though.

As for those claiming the war in Syria is all our fault - perhaps they could care to elaborate.

MephistophelesApprentice

It is possible to simultaneously be sad for the plight of refugees while concerned about the impact of their migration on the most vulnerable in our society, whether that's women and children or those economically worse off.

This point was discussed n another thread. I agree. As I mentioned there the detrimental side of mass immigration tends to hit the poor. The benefits and the sense of having done the compassionate thing tends to be felt by the middle and upper classes.

Personally I struggle with the whole left v right labels as well. I am v left on some issues and very right on others! It is never simple.

And 'Christianity' is not, in my opinion, something worth preserving - the Christian right are illiberal and entirely lacking in compassion.

Are we supposed to pretend that is not racist, because it criticises Christians and not Muslims, and advocates sweeping aside their entire religion and culture, based on a 2000 year history?

That's a pretty intolerant opinion you have TooMuchRain.

And your inability to see that lack of tolerance is a far bigger problem than Christianity, and its values of compassion, tolerance and turning the other cheek, is rather telling.

It's such a tricky situation :/ When I see photos of people risking their lives to bring their children to a safe place, it breaks my heart But then I see photos of the economic migrants in Calais, and my blood boils!
If I could flick a switch and automatically become Queen of the World, I would set up check points at every European border, and anyone that cannot produce genuine proof that they are from Syria/Iraq/Afghanistan, and have a genuine claim to asylum, then I would trot them off back to where they came from.