They're not refugees, we're being invaded

[goonthenflameme]

I admit, the Syrians have got it bad. There is a war and those boys who haven't been shot by ISIL are being conscripted by the President.

But if life is that bad, why do they only want to go to Germany and if they can't go then then they'll go back to Syria.

Why are we now seeing people from Kazakstan joining the throngs?

I agree that people from Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria need help. But the thougsands and thousands of people coming through can't all be refugees in dire need of help if they are so picky as to where they will live.

They're invading Europe. And we are letting them. What's going to happen in 20 years? Will Christianity and western ways be swept under the carpet?

What's changed is communications - everyone has a smartphone and can see what life is like elsewhere, and swap tips about how to get from a bad place to a better one

Not to mention the sophisticated network of people traffickers making big profits and strenuously encouraging people to migrate in order to exploit the situation and maximize those profits

?

OTheHugeManatee I think we also need a huge discussion about the point Leave made But how long will that integration take, and can we support them all while we wait four generations for it to happen? What if they don't integrate?

I've lived in Germany, next to Turkish immigrants, and was shocked by their failure to make any attempts to integrate. Maybe this is something that will lessen with succeeding generations, but the women in the flat next to mine basically never left the house to go outside, other than the one girl who still went to school. They made no effort to integrate by wearing western style clothing. They did not drive. They would never do something like go for a walk. In their case, this was not due to their being oppressed by "the man of the house" - the poor man was shouted at constantly from the moment he entered that house and must have thought of work as a blessed relief. Those women didn't even speak German and wouldn't even acknowledge me when I smiled and said hello to them - unfriendly is not the word!

I also remember in Germany being regularly harassed by the groups of young Turkish unemployed males who would congregate in the centre of town during the day to shout sexual remarks at any woman that passed by. It was horrible, and all the Germans, who seemed to be coached to have great humility after the Wars, simply kept their heads down and ignored it. Sometimes these men would follow you, jutting in front of you, trying to make you stop and basically ridicule you. I was told the police couldn't do anything because they would complain of racism.

I must admit that I have a horrific reaction to the head coverings that many Muslim women wear. I find it offensive that they obviously believe that women have to cover up to hide themselves from men. It insults me deeply. Its so life-limiting - it prevents you from doing sport properly for one thing.

What is the point in migrating to a western culture that offers you more freedom, if you are going to cover your head and not work or participate in the activities available in your new culture? Is it all really about money then? Does ISIS realise that its going to have no opposition if it drives people to run away, hence it will get control over an entire country by authorising people to leave and making life a misery for those who don't?

Ridiculously inflammatory op

Interesting article here, especially the bit about learning from history

www.rsc.ox.ac.uk/news/to-deal-with-the-refugee-crisis-you-need-to-understand-the-cause-alexander-betts-in-the-conversation

Why Germany you ask, OP?
Because it's one of the very few places that doesn't blatantly exhibit xenophobia like the majority of Europe. This is not to say it does not exist there, but overall, the German government has opened the door and said "You have a future...you deserve this and perhaps here, you can reclaim it."
But look how quick the average person supported Hungary's actions. Teargassing kids?? Are we really ok with this? Has our empathy run so dry? And we wonder how the Holocaust was allowed to gain such momentum. It's the mentality prevailing now that fuels xenophobia.
Look around us...read the comments sections of online papers. From Guardian readers to Daily Mail readers, xenophobia is on the rise and this frightens me above all.

What is the point in migrating to a western culture that offers you more freedom, if you are going to cover your head and not work or participate in the activities available in your new culture?
The reverse could also be said about European immigrants in other regions.

Today's reports from the fiasco that is the EU response.

Guardian

Telegraph

The inflection is different to reflect the respective biases of each paper but the basic information is the same. The influx has just begun, EU leaders are utterly failing to coordinate a response, and it looks increasingly as though while they all sit there bickering this great migration will destroy Schengen. Not to mention blowing away any semblance of EU unity and solidarity.

It's all very well framing this as humanitarian. It is. But the political ramifications go way, way beyond aid for displaced families from warzones. I think we are watching the slow collapse of the EU project and the migrant crisis will go down in history as one of the things that pushed it over the edge.

The larger the number of migrants the more likely they are to form separate communities and not integrate.

These larger communities in turn make it more attractive for others from the country of origin because there is an existing community where they can continue with their familiar way of life, but in a country with better infrastructure. ?

Some European countries, like Germany, have a huge problem in the making with their ageing population. The elderly will soon outnumber the younger and the economy will go tits up. A large number of the Syrian refugees are young educated professionals so it's in their interest to welcome them in.

The fact that the majority are single and male is precisely because of the cost and risks involved. They are paving the way , once settled thier wives and children will no doubt follow.

OTheHugeManatee - some useful posts as usual.
Soveryupset - important to hear some accounts of people who have real experience rather than just opinions.
Scremersford - your experience in Germany is the same as mine in Paris. I lived in a mainly North African neighbourhood and was regularly called a slut or a whore just for walking outside alone. I had long blonde hair but I learned to tuck it into my coat or jacket and wear a scarf, (not over my head but wrapped high around my neck to hide it a bit). And I never wore skirts or heels. I realise this does not mean that everyone is like this - I am not stupid - but that was my experience.

In my heart, (and I worked with refugees from Bosnia in the 90's - in my town - but it was completely different), I know that I would not want to live near a large group of young men from a culture who believed that women were not equal. That does not make me a nice person but it is nonethelesss true.

Some very good points about the longer-term consequences of this. It simply has to be thought through fully. We cannot ignore it but we cannot assume it is just a few people who need our help and then it will be over.

I know that I would not want to live near a large group of young men from a culture who believed that women were not equal. That does not make me a nice person but it is nonethelesss true.

Why does that not make you a nice person? It is perfectly reasonable

Luckily we are on an island, luckily we have a parliament who is fully aware of all the negative aspects with this mass migration / invasion and I hope to god they keep it all under control.

On Scremersford's experience.

Funny how different one's experiences can be re integration.
I live in Germany in a predominately Turkish area. The kindergarten my son went to was very international, but Turkish kids did form the majority. I spent time together with the families at kindergarten events and at the local playgrounds. We chatted together about food and cooking, the best areas to live in, which schools we were hoping our kids would go to. Normal stuff, basically. In German. Some people told me how their families had moved areas to make sure that the kids got a better education, didn't hang out with the wrong crowd, and so on.
A lot of the kids started out at kindergarten at 2 years old and speaking only Turkish. Watching them through four years of kindergarten, you could see how many families were actually suppressing use of Turkish in an attempt to foster the German language skills of the children. Not all, of course, but many.

Turkish women, whether with or without headscarves, work in the area in pharmacies and doctor's offices as well as in restaurants and clothing shops. There are Turkish women working in local supermarkets including German chains as well as Turkish groceries. And they are not just working at the cash register either, but stocking shelves and working at the butcher's counter.
Of the Turkish women I know personally, there is a kindergarten teacher, a secretary, a driving instructor, a social worker, and a lady who volunteers at the local Red Cross office. Some wear headscarfs and some don't. Some of them, if you didn't know them well, you wouldn't know they were Turkish.

On the headscarf issue in Germany. There's a lot of issues going on there, and it can't just be boiled down to refusal to integrate or belief in having to cover up.

To give just a single example of how it fits into wider issues, it's worth remembering that wearing a headscarf is prohibited in many circumstances in Turkey. The 'freedom of the West' can be taken as the freedom to wear a headscarf if you want to as compared to not having that freedom in Turkey.

Anyway, its all rather a tangent to the actual topic, so I'll stop here.

It's not just the Men. I volunteered at a Woman's centre and women from these groups are of the same thinking. It was visit after visit of them crying about abusive in-laws they lived with and then not wanting to leave the culture. It was so sad.

I live in an area of high migration. I was spat at in the street and called a white whore by a group of young muslim men but according to some people on here I was being ridiculous. These things do happen and as long as people refuse to accept this these things will continue and will get worse.

I know that I would not want to live near a large group of young men from a culture who believed that women were not equal. That does not make me a nice person but it is nonethelesss true

If nice means being tolerant and understanding in the face of sexism and misogyny then I am glad I'm not 'nice'

Lweji The reverse could also be said about European immigrants in other regions.

I suppose ignoring all the quiet, well integrated Europeans that work other than in their home country is easier than focussing on a few Brits in Spain who like to be loud and eat British food. Don't Europeans who work in countries where the head is required to be covered do that anywhere then?

BlueJug your experience in Germany is the same as mine in Paris. I lived in a mainly North African neighbourhood and was regularly called a slut or a whore just for walking outside alone.

Oh yes, I've been called a slut when running alone outside by non-ethnic Germans. By women! When I turned round, astonished, and asked them what they said, they just ignored me and refused to reply. And its well known that theres a part of Brussels where, as a white woman, you would just not be welcome. I got lost there once, on foot, and when I asked for directions (in French), everyone just ignored me or brushed me off. I had to get a taxi out. Everyone later told me I was lucky not to be attacked. The ignoring thing seems to be quite a common response from women.

I don't mean to come across as anti-immigration. I have friends who are immigrants and have signed passport applications for British citizenship. What I do object to is sexist attitudes and being harassed. I really hate the notion that women should cover their heads and hide away.

At school my daughter was told day in day out by a Muslim girl that white girls are whores. This was pre the mass convictions of Muslim child traffickers and abusers of white girls. The school did nothing to help the Muslim girl nor my daughter who had to hide in the toilets to get away from the racist bullying brain washed girl. This was in a predominantly white school too.

I feel that it assumes that they will treat me badly - and they might not. I really want to believe that just because some people behave like that not all of them will. That's why I feel that it does not make me the more open minded, generous person I would like to be. However it is how I feel and I have to admit that.

I know Germany quite well. I didn't live there but spent many weeks every year for ten years in Munich, Dusseldorf, Leverkusen, Frankfurt and a few other places. I know that I would not want to be at the local station or square now - and would not let my kids go. I see pictures of familiar places and feel unease.

"it's worth remembering that wearing a headscarf is prohibited in many circumstances in Turkey."

Not anymore.

" The 'freedom of the West' can be taken as the freedom to wear a headscarf if you want to as compared to not having that freedom in Turkey."

The Turks you see in Germany are mostly 2nd or 3rd generation. Their parents & grandparents moved to Germany for reasons that have nothing to do with freedom to wear religious clothing.

The thing that concerns me is the refugees are behaving in such a way when boarding trains that this misogynistic attitude of amen elbowing Woman and children back, is a majority thought pattern.

By the way - I would feel unease if these large crowds of angry men were UK born, white, secular/Christian - eg a football crowd from the 1970's. It is not simple racism.

Well you know I love in an area of high immigration, lots of Muslim families. I work predominantly with families who are Muslim coming a few different countries. I work with fantastic, diverse, engaging people oh and some arseholes and racists. When I worked with mainly white british it was just the same.

There are plenty of racists on this thread. It is an unpleasant read.

Anywhere that has large groups of disaffected young men can expect to face social problems. It's a fact that the majority of of the recent flow of immigrants through Europe are young men. Whether they will become disaffected will remain to be seen. I expect they will when they realise that the jobs, education opportunities, benefits they are expecting do not materialise. Coupled with the future that a large majority of these male immigrants come from very patriarchal societies, I can foresee all sorts of social problems which will affect women in Europe. Especially women who may not conform to their expected behaviour, such as being fully covered up, submissive, homebound, lacking in self determination etc.

I just can't see where all these people can be housed when the country is massively under stocked.

By the same token I can see why Syrians are fleeing a 4 year war.

It's just a horrible mess.

lamination it is highly offensive of you to be calling people on this thread racist just because they are worried, have personal experiences and opinions they would like to share on this contentious topic.