They're not refugees, we're being invaded

[goonthenflameme]

I admit, the Syrians have got it bad. There is a war and those boys who haven't been shot by ISIL are being conscripted by the President.

But if life is that bad, why do they only want to go to Germany and if they can't go then then they'll go back to Syria.

Why are we now seeing people from Kazakstan joining the throngs?

I agree that people from Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria need help. But the thougsands and thousands of people coming through can't all be refugees in dire need of help if they are so picky as to where they will live.

They're invading Europe. And we are letting them. What's going to happen in 20 years? Will Christianity and western ways be swept under the carpet?

Well I've lived in London for 6 years, worked and lived in various multicultural areas and like a pp said, I've had harassment since forever, but mainly from white British men. I'll never understand this getting trotted out as a reason not to help in this crisis.

not re-create the oppressive regimes that they are fleeing

The men won't want to recreate the things which oppressed them

However men from a culture which oppresses women WILL want to continue to oppress women

They will want to recreate the aspects of their native culture which suit them, and male dominance ?no doubt suits them very well, they will see it as the natural order of things

JeffreysMummy have you ever lived and worked abroad, alone, as a young female, in several large European cities?

" As for those claiming the war in Syria is all our fault - perhaps they could care to elaborate."

I didn't suggest it was your fault per se, did I?
If by 'our' you are referring to the British governments past and present, you know, have a google around Brit involvement in the Middle East,
starting with Laurence of Arabia, moving onto Lord Rothschild's letter to Balfour and the establishment of the state of Israel, then moving onto the Anglo-American oil wars of the region....blah blah.
Things dont just happen in a vacuum do they?

And of course I don't remember typing that sexism and harassment can't be challenged. And saying that comments where people judge the behaviour of entire religions/communities by a few experiences or a single interpretation of a religion - yup that's racist. That doesn't shut down debate. That is what reducing it all to simple stereotypes does.
It's a mess, it's complicated, how it's managed, what the challenges are can all be discussed without creating images that reduce swathes of population to simplistic bogey men.

I'll never understand this getting trotted out as a reason not to help in this crisis.

No-one is saying we shouldn't help. They are saying we should be very careful about how we help and that is should not be at the long term cost of our own social and economic wellbeing and hard fought freedoms. I'm not sure why that is so difficult for some people to understand.

These threads always go the same way.

'We should help those poor people'

'yes, but we need to do it in a careful, measured way'

'why don't you want to help them? Are you racist?'

'No and I do want to help, I just think it's important we do it in the right way'

'You are a hard hearted selfish racist, you don't want to help.'

I know about British involvement in the Middle East "blah blah". I know it's not pretty.

I was asking why you (and the other Mumsnetters who regularly say this) believe it is Britain to blame for the war in Syria.

because of British involvement in the middle east? Like I just said?

Well of course we want to do it in the "right" way, whatever that means, but how is "well once a Muslim man called me a slut" relevant?
A white American man once commented on my tits and then called me a lesbian when I told him to fuck off..is that relevant?

we should be very careful about how we help and that is should not be at the long term cost of our own social and economic wellbeing and hard fought freedoms

yes, exactly

Lemon I agree, those sorts of comments are not helpful or useful. But i understand the fears of the people who make them and I think they have a point, albeit poorly expressed.

a white South African once told me that my friend was 'coloured' and 'wome should be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen' (try saying that with a real South African accent!
Is my anecdote relevant?

*women, obvs

Sorry I was trying to post a picture of a bleeding man holding a toddler during clashes with Hungarian riot police.

Or of a dad swimming with a baby in a life tube after their dinghy sank off the coast of lesbos

These are people fleeing war. Turning them away does not sound very Christian.

In this thread a lot of issues are being confused

1) is that a change in demographic is scary

• we fear change and the unknown, lets break down some of the concerns

"Minority Areas are intimidating"- I would argue that any group of disenfranchised/ poorer people can be intimidating be that a muslim community, or a white "chav" community or estate (I personally consider the use of chav a form of racism or poor hatred)

"Minorities become majorities and elect muslim leaders" - I think its hyperbole to think that this leads to Sharia law, I think that it's OK to have muslim elected officials, I recognise that scandals happened in Rotherham etc (and were dealt with really poorly often by White officials being over cautious of religious sensitivities)

2) Is that a potential change in demographic is a deliberate conspiracy or invasion

• I just don't think this is the case? Do you really think this?

3) Young men don't need any help (we should only help women and children)

• ok this is an extrapolation on my part, but can you not be fleeing war if you are a bloke?

Are we so inhumane that we can't consider ANY way to help people and manage our fears. That we are just going to let desperate people drown?

*HighHogh" would you get on a shitty little dinghy with your toddler in a poxy inflatable life jacket and armbands for money?? I don't think it's like a westerner going to Saudi Arabia at all.

You understand that Britain hasn't been involved in the war in Syria 'blah blah'?

I suppose by your reckoning that anything bad that ever happens in India , Africa, Australia or America now is 'our fault' too?

Well yes it will have an economic impact, in the long run it might improve our economy by having an influx of young people eager to work and educate themselves. It may be a strain initially though, either you accept that and share or you don't.

And I still don't get this bit about hard fought freedoms, which of these do you see being taken away?

It's not an issue of not wanting to help Men. It's an issue of wanting to help Men women whoever who take care of their vulnerable.

hypocrites oaf, things don't just happen in a vacuum. The causes of conflicts and crises often lie decades earlier.
Why are you getting so upset? I am speaking the truth.
Britain has had a very exploitative presence in the ME for over a century now.

oh and oaf, it is much better if you do not refer to the British Government as 'our' and 'we'. Unless they come to you for advice that is.

Prejudice is natural and a crucial element in our survival. It is how we deal with it that counts.

How many times on MN do we see the words"Red Flag" - someone has done something, not bad in itself, but previous experience leads us to believe that certain types of behaviour are likely to follow. No-one knows this particular person - just a pattern.

If you are attacked several times by a big dog you are naturally wary of dogs. If you have never been attacked by a cat you will happily let your baby stroke one. We build a picture of the world from our experiences.

Knowing that this is both natural and valid yet DOES NOT mean that all Big Dogs are dangerous and all cats are safe is important. We learn to take each situation on a case by case basis but our previous experiences are there to help us make decisions when we have no other information to go on. Discounting what people have experienced and the conclusions they draw from that as racist is not helpful.

Better to ask: Why do they feel that? Is there any truth in it? Of course it does not apply to every single Muslim/Christian/Black guy/white woman - but what has led to this belief?

If you met me you would form an impression of me immediately based on my age, sex, assumed social class, my accent, my skin colour - of course you would. You might be wrong you might be right. I would hope that you would take the time to find out.

All those places people are trying to escape from?
They're struggling so much in large part because they've been screwed over by the West.

ISIS? Also fuelled by the West.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq

When the US and its allies steadily dismantle a whole region "because of terrorism" (bullshit - it's because of money and oil), how ON EARTH can we complain about refugees?

As a disabled woman, it concerns me when I watch the behaviour of the majority of these young Men. The Fathers with their family are a minority. I have never been so grateful in my life to Tory policy of taking in the vulnerable, as I am fearful of Men who behave that way.

Quite frankly, I don't understand the big deal if Islam became as 'big' as Christianity in Europe - does it really matter which made-up Middle Eastern religion people in Europe follow? And what Western ways shall we miss the most? Binge drinking, MacDonalds, or the need to buy a new Apple product every 10 mins?

^ How can anyone be so f*ing stupid and naive.

Very naïve to believe there won't be changes in the future due to a large influx of Muslims to Britain.

A school local to me has closed today and tomorrow for the Eid celebrations, causing non-Muslim parents to have to organise childcare for these two days.

More of the same in the future, but so what, eh?

I understand things don't happen in a vacuum. I am interested in why you believe succesive British govts are responsible for the war in Syria. All you've said is 'Balfour declaration' blah blah. Is that the best you can do?
You don't think successive dictators inc Assad that have carried out repeated massacres have any responsibility at all?