They're not refugees, we're being invaded

[goonthenflameme]

I admit, the Syrians have got it bad. There is a war and those boys who haven't been shot by ISIL are being conscripted by the President.

But if life is that bad, why do they only want to go to Germany and if they can't go then then they'll go back to Syria.

Why are we now seeing people from Kazakstan joining the throngs?

I agree that people from Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria need help. But the thougsands and thousands of people coming through can't all be refugees in dire need of help if they are so picky as to where they will live.

They're invading Europe. And we are letting them. What's going to happen in 20 years? Will Christianity and western ways be swept under the carpet?

The female prime minister/CEO/President in my view is just a huge red herring. I come from a country that certainly has such tokenism, however at grassroots level there is huge inequality and women are largely still seen as inferior to men.

All you have to do is to look at FGM - rates in this country are soaring - there was very recently an article on the BBC alleging there are over 1000 cases in the UK alone.

Unfortunately female oppression becomes intrinsic to cultural values, so it becomes very hard to unravel. A little bit like the wearing of different degrees of facial covering.

I don't think we have a perfect society here in the UK; however, having come from a much less equal one, dominated by religion and so called moral values, I greatly value what I have here.

Does it matter if they don't share our values?

Rarely have I read something so utterly moronic. We are not talking about people who vote differently to you, we are talking about people who don't think you should have a vote, or drive, or go out without your husband's permission, who might call you a whore in the street.

And you think this doesn't matter?

I don't believe all incomers think this way, nor do I believe we shouldn't aid genuine refugees who will share our values and not try to change them into the values of their own countries. But I certainly think we should be cautious about exactly who we invite here. It's very difficult to get rid once they are here - the radicals scream about thr human rights they should have, which they would deny to you in a heartbeat!

Does it matter?

The paradox of being a tolerant society, having to tolerate those who are intolerant.

You might say that tolerance and liberalism contain the seeds ?of their own destruction

The paradox of being a tolerant society, having to tolerate those who are intolerant.

I disagree with that entirely.

Now they're raping women and children in the camps. Do not want these men here.

Intradental, I think the comment was about local government not MPs so I think this is the more relevant list of people councillors

(NB I know nothing about any of those people or the area so this isn't a comment on the list but just for clarity of information)

I was trying to remember why Tower Hamlets Council had been on the news and it was this which I think is what the original poster who raised it was discussing.

But did you read the news article? The mayoral elections were re-run after legal challenge, corruption allegations and racial/religious allegiance/tension does seem to have played a large part in that story (but I am going off half remembered news reports, a quick google and one Guardian article and so am not claiming any special expertise!)

you missed my point Ten

never mind

So saving the lives of 20,000 people over five years is going to result in all British womanhood being raped, forbidden to drive cars and having to wear a burka

People are so fanciful, really. My brother has been a devote Muslim for over forty years and the women in his community are in no way oppressed or subservient.

Islam, properly practiced produces women who are capable of anything. One of the prophet's wives was a businesswoman, another was one of the most famous teachers of all time. The first university in the world was founded by a Muslim woman.

I suggest people read more widely around the Tower Hamlets vote rigging scandal than the Guardian.

No-one is saying Rahman was corrupt in a 'Muslim' way, whatever that might be. (Though a local imam is alleged to have told his co gregarious that voting for someone other than Rahman would be 'un-Islamic'.) But he did run his elections in a way that played on racial/cultural allegiances and arguably has more in common with political practices in the subcontinent than the UK.

The lack of joined up response from 'Europe' has been tragic and it exposes a significant weakness of the European idea/ideal.

No one knows what is going to happen.
The West has messed around with the status quo in all these places.
If every single person in these places wanted to come to Europe it would be hard to argue against morally.
BUT there are some serious questions -
Why aren't the wealthy Arab Muslim nations helping much much more?

And the USA, the great creator of the recent geopolitical landscape with our mostly repulsive help - the USA should be taking a huge number of people.

This situation was created, imo, by the governments of the rich west voted in by the populations of the rich west. We are connected to this chaos and human anguish and I believe we will have to step up and respond more intelligently than we have so far. It will mean us being far more generous than we are used to. But hell we sold a lot of the armaments that have been used to destroy the homes of the people we want to avoid giving to the now homeless. Go figure.

I didn't miss your point, suzanne, I made two separate points of my own.

I don't think a tolerant society should be tolerant of bigots. It's threatening to a harmonious society.

Hang on longstocking, when you say we, I don't remember agreeing to an Iraq war, or selling arms to people who shouldn't have them. And it's not my fault their governments haven't been big on human rights. I'm not accepting any personal responsibility for any of this.

I vaguely remember a quote that I think was Salman Rushdie (apologies if not), that said something along the lines of 'if you have to limit the rights and freedoms of anybody, limit those who would limit yours first'. Not an exact quote but you get the gist. I only want to import people who respect my rights and freedoms and wouldnt seek to limit them.

of course, but our government do act in our name whether we voted for them or not. Our electoral system is deeply flawed and Blair did not have a mandate to go to war but unfortunately our PM is very powerful.

We all know that our politicians are a self serving bunch, by and large. We just vote for the ones who look the best bet at election time. I don't feel it's my fault if they lie.

I would love to see a system where manifesto pledges were counted as contracts with the electorate and going back on election promises deemed breach of contract and resulted in an immediate general election. Because without this we have no power over what a govt does.

I can't say much, lest I out myself but I've seen religion/race based (yes it was Muslim/Pakistani) political corruption attempts first hand.

In my experience in small areas with a large minority from one ethnic community that 'vote' becomes pivotal in elections. There are people within such communities who will only vote for candidates from their own community.

Of course it goes the other way too when some people will only vote for white British people men.

I don't think anyone can predict what the long term consequences (good and bad) will come from the current crisis.

Personally I don't want a change to our political establishment which makes life for women in Britain even worse than it already is, which is surely more likely if we elect more politicians who have more 'conservative' views about women.

It's not racist or islamaphobic to have these concerns about women's rights.

Saying Western culture is "binge drinking" and "MacDonalds" is the same as saying Islamic culture is "suicide bombing" and "paedophile gangs". Both are ridicuous suggestions.

I have not caught up with the thread. I just wanted to share good news, regarding the young woman featured on the BBC, previously referred to. m.facebook.com/Ouch.BBC/posts/1177834795566702?ref=m_notif&notif_t=notify_me_page

Maybe some councils will start building social housing again? Which would also bump the economy and give work to some unemployed and refugees?

Yeah.Where? and using what for money?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3247831/Rape-child-abuse-rife-overcrowded-asylum-centres-huge-surge-migrants-pushes-Germany-s-services-breaking-point-claim-womens-rights-groups-politicians.html

I know its the waily fail, but things don't seem to be going so well in Germany