They're not refugees, we're being invaded

[goonthenflameme]

I admit, the Syrians have got it bad. There is a war and those boys who haven't been shot by ISIL are being conscripted by the President.

But if life is that bad, why do they only want to go to Germany and if they can't go then then they'll go back to Syria.

Why are we now seeing people from Kazakstan joining the throngs?

I agree that people from Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria need help. But the thougsands and thousands of people coming through can't all be refugees in dire need of help if they are so picky as to where they will live.

They're invading Europe. And we are letting them. What's going to happen in 20 years? Will Christianity and western ways be swept under the carpet?

It's interesting if you look at the writings - women are often placed above men in the Koran - but Sharia law isn't ONLY based on the Koran - it's based on the political needs and ideas of the rules of the country in which it is practised - and that shapes the law around women

It is already used in the UK informally to resolve civil disputes amongst some Islamic communities - I'm not seeing our rights eroded as a result

By getting to know those mens wives and sisters? and 'those men' themselves

it's so nice to sit in our 'liberated' country and be horrified but Rape in Marriage was only out lawed in the UK in 1991! We are slowly making progress to a more equal society - we bring people along with us

that doesn't JUST mean Muslim men - it means men in general - and women!

ghosty By getting to know those mens wives and sisters? and 'those men' themselves

How? I meet most of the people I know through the hobbies that I do. Not all of us women have children! There are never any Muslim men (or women) at any of my hobbies, despite my club trying very hard, and a lot of people giving up their free time, to encourage participation from the Muslim population. We have other ethnic minorities taking part (many black people), many other emigrants (several Poles, Germans, Lithuanians) but Muslims are continually disinterested. Yes, I sometimes speak to Muslim women out shopping, but that's not really much to establish a friendship on. Even the small business I use e.g. nail bars, salons - no Muslim women working there.

I did meet some Muslim women at university (and also some Syrian Christians and an Iranian Christian), but even then they were discouraged from getting too friendly with the rest of us. So while they would talk to you in Halls over dinner, they wouldn't share a flat with you when you left halls, would refuse invitations to visit you at home and so on.

I know when I lived abroad, I made far more effort to integrate. Joining sports clubs is such an easy way to do it. Theres a limit to how much time a person can expand on chasing after an elusive Muslim woman who wants to limit her "friendship" to the occasional chat. Maybe you are lucky and you are surrounded by more sociable Muslim people. I find their culture, despite its faults, really fascinating, but its really difficult to get to know them! Its so sad for them. They are missing out on so much.

Nodding my head, radiohelen. Do we live in the same neighbourhood?

It's happening now. Heads out of sand. 20,000 Syrian refugees will be our new neighbours, plus countless other economic migrants, other refugees, and travellers.

A few pages back (been reading this since last night) someone said prejudice is natural, but it's what we do with / about it that matters. I completely agree with this. The same is true of all the accounts of history that have been given here. We need to deal with "now."

Sharia law is IMHO deficient because it generally does not provide for a distinction between the organs of government and the judiciary, and it does not make it compulsory for judges in courts to be legally qualified. Well at least not to the extent of having the qualifications it is necessary to be a lawyer elsewhere, such as a proper law degree and professional practice. Being a religious Iman is not really an acceptable way to become a judge.

Most Sharia legal systems, in fact all of them, are very poor at updating the law and for legislating for modernisation. The systems and organisation of government behind them tend to be weak and to lack proper mechanisms. So because legislation rarely changes, its characterised by localised interpretation and enforcement which varies hugely and which is pretty unaccountable.

Generally, there is far too much emphasis on the duties of the individual to comply (e.g. the five pillars of Islam) and too little on the duties and responsibilities of the State to provide a fair and equal system to enable that compliance.

Its really a dreadful, archaic legal system.

The Saudis claim they have rehomed 2.5 million Syrians since the start of the conflict (I don't necessarily believe this, but curious that they would say it) www.facebook.com/ksamofa/posts/1132934476716779:0

I know. The country that wants to crucify and behead a boy for speaking about democracy, yet who are "our friends". . .

I stopped doing RS at school at 14, but surely if people believe that their religion states X (ie that women are less than men), then that is what the religion actively becomes irrespective of what the official 'rules' of the religion may/may not state.

I think it's a stretch to feel sorry for 'them' because they don't share your hobbies!

I got chatting to a pair of women on an escalator in the Bullring this weekend - because I overheard them discussing something and I added a bit of info - we had a lovely chat and went on our way

I know lots of Asian women who play sport - my close friend goes to boot camp, swims, runs and spins - lots of Muslim women play sport.

I'm not suggesting in my post that you alone go forth and engage the entire Muslim population of the UK - just that if we all try a bit harder to chat it might help

If you are interested in their culture and religions most larger Mosques have open days where you can go and look round and ask questions - well worth the visit

but if practised properly Sharia law treats women as equal

The falseness & stupidity of this statement has been demolished on so many other threads, I can't believe you are still parroting this nonsense.

Hi MistressMia :)

did you mean to be so rude ?

It's gull time!

I would argue our liberalism is one of the biggest reasons these people want to come here

maybe, or do they want to enjoy the fruits of our liberalism whilst holding to the illiberal values of their native culture?

In particular I think it very unlikely that men from a more strongly patriarchal culture will be amenable to viewing women as equals rather than as the property of men

Depends on the culture and the man

And what Western ways shall we miss the most? Binge drinking, MacDonalds, or the need to buy a new Apple product every 10 mins?

If you think people living in islamic aren't doing this, you are naive. Do you really think the Saudi royal family don't buy apple products, Bentleys, Jimmy Choos and god knows what else? I live in a multicultural area and the young Muslim men and woman have nice cars, wear jeans and heels with headscarf and have the latest phones. And why not? They have earned their money, they can spend it how they wish.

Maybe we are the decadent West but I don't think the Middle East has much of a problem with joining in - look at Dubai and Qatar

ghosty I think it's a stretch to feel sorry for 'them' because they don't share your hobbies!

So do I. That's why I never said it.

I think its sad that a lot of Muslim women are prohibited from doing so many things that non-Muslim women have the freedom to do. That's hardly controversial!

I know lots of Asian women who play sport - my close friend goes to boot camp, swims, runs and spins - lots of Muslim women play sport.

I have never, ever met a Muslim woman who does mountain bike racing, and I do lots. Even your local 5k or 10k - covering your head is going to make it so hot and uncomfortable for anyone who feels they have do that, its bound to be off-putting. And even if they do run, they are going to be proportionately slower because of that. Where are all these sporty Muslim women? They're certainly not out trying to meet British women by joining in with our hobbies! A few exceptions hardly break the norm.

I'm not suggesting in my post that you alone go forth and engage the entire Muslim population of the UK - just that if we all try a bit harder to chat it might help

I actually detailed some of my efforts, which you have overlooked. How much time and energy do you think the average person has to devote to this? Its like drawing teeth. I think you have to actually change your lifestyle entirely to "engage" meaningfully. Even at university, invitations would be turned down and contact lost immediately on leaving. Chatting to someone out shopping is hardly the same as making friends and doing stuff together.

I live in Sweden and come into contact with refugees all the time as I use some of the same 'support for foreigners' services they do. From what I've been told there's 2 reasons they end up here. The biggest is perception of safety, they believe Sweden is least likely to send them back making it the safest option. The other is that they had no choice, they either ended up where the traffickers took them or they were relocated here by the UNCHR.

I can honestly say I haven't met any who actually want to stay here, the adults all want to go home, although they're resigned to the fact that will be unlikely.

I sit next to a lady from Afghanistan in my language class. She's been here, via the UNCHR for 8 years. She told me she'd go back tomorrow if she thought it was safe. She hasn't seen her mum for 8 years and doesn't think she'll ever see her again. She says she won't be able to go back because her children have been here so long they have no memory of Afghanistan. This is their home.

We need to deal with "now."

Absolutely!

What an unpleasant thread, started by someone who claims that her family had to flee from Christian Germany but is majorly worried about the loss of Christianity.

Lots of people who, for example, weren't able to strike up a friendship with a Muslim woman at the school gates, so this means that all Syrians are awful.

So much stereotyping going on and, as we are all anonymous, we are being sold racist anecdotes that we don't even know are true.

So lets let the Syrians be bombed and drowned, why should we care?

I am shocked that MN has banned the OP! The post wasn't THAT inflammatory in comparison with some that have been allowed in the past. We may not agree with her/him, but banning is OTT. Unless there is considerable 'previous'.

As for those who say we have no more right to live here in Britain than people in the Middle East or anywhere else in the world...

My father, grandparents, great-greats- going back a thousand years lived in this country through civil wars, depressions, famines, uprisings, world wars, whatever. They paid their dues. Some of them worked in ghastly Victorian factories. Others gave up their lives for their country in wars.. If you'd told them that I had no particular right to live here in the UK, where I was born, they would have thought you were barking mad.

I do not have a 'right' to turn up in New York or Sydney or Geneva, for example, and demand entry. Should I insist that it's not my fault I wasn't born American or Australian or Swiss?

Refugees may OF COURSE have the right to live here for various humanitarian reasons. Economic migrants may also have the right to live here. Indeed we should be grateful to both groups for what a large number have contributed to our country and culture. The doctor who saved my Dad's life in January, for instance: a very skilled Egyptian cardiologist.

The 'British Empire as the cause of all evil' argument starts to get tedious. What we're seeing now in Syria is largely the result of an intra-Muslim fight. Syria was never a British colony.

Have you just read the first an least pages of the thread?

I have muslim friends. Even managed to strike a friendship with a muslim mum at the school gates. So, they must all be nice and pleasant.

radiohelen paints a grim picture of what Trevor Phillips predicted a decade ago: a nation sleepwalking into racial and cultural ghettoisation.

It's been aided all the way by the lazy, feelgood doctrine of 'multiculturalism', which works as a get-out-of-thinking-free card to avoid tackling the hard thoughts about what is likely to happen when cultures with mutually incompatible tenets are encouraged to lead parallel existences within the same nation and legal system.

I repeat: the refugee crisis is a genuine humanitarian crisis and calls for compassion. It also calls for clear-sighted analysis and a grasp of the bigger picture. That includes being able and willing to debate questions of cultural integration and to make space in the debate for people who are made anxious by the pace of change in their communities.

Mass migration is now a fact of life, thanks to globalisation, and isn't going to go away whatever happens to the political situation in Syria. But there has to be some acknowledgement and discussion of the fact that some people are uncomfortable with this. If their voices are ignored or worse, insulted, in the long run it's going to breed the kind of resentment that drives pogroms.