They're not refugees, we're being invaded

[goonthenflameme]

I admit, the Syrians have got it bad. There is a war and those boys who haven't been shot by ISIL are being conscripted by the President.

But if life is that bad, why do they only want to go to Germany and if they can't go then then they'll go back to Syria.

Why are we now seeing people from Kazakstan joining the throngs?

I agree that people from Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria need help. But the thougsands and thousands of people coming through can't all be refugees in dire need of help if they are so picky as to where they will live.

They're invading Europe. And we are letting them. What's going to happen in 20 years? Will Christianity and western ways be swept under the carpet?

That's scary. It just gives a green light to treat women badly.

Soveryupset - that is horrific - how can a woman become a manager then if she is given no one to manage? Is this even legal? Does religion trump equality? Makes me shiver. I have sons, but I also have nieces.

They get away with it as it is a minority. It will be interesting when it is a majority - hopefully this will never happen, but it is a very real issue and certainly not an isolated incident, as I have witnessed similar elsewhere before.

Don't feed the journalist all. Make them do their own research.

Lisbeth, I also feel that the involvement of the US and UK (and others) in creating the problems in the Middle East is too often overlooked. The problem is that you have to do a little extra digging around to see how much (very disturbing) Western involvement there is, since a lot of it is covert and under-reported. This is because it tends to benefit the very most rich and powerful, is unpalatable and would be extremely unpopular with many people. And passing it off as "trying to help" (humanitarian aid), or "trying to protect us from terrorists" is one of the biggest scams around. Terrifying.

Good grief Sovery that is shocking.

whoops I meant to bold you but I'm sure you won't object to some pretty italics.

We have a very big apprentice scheme at work and we have had a vast increase in young men (17, 18, 19 typically) of a certain religion/heritage demanding they are not interviewed and subsequently managed by a woman. These are all recorded on our HR systems.

They have been hired. They should never have been given the jobs in the first place.

Frankly in that instance the men in question should be hauled over the coals for sexual discrimination in the work place and told 'this is person is your superior and deserves to be so, if you do not approve of the hierarchy in this establishment you are welcome to seek work elsewhere, and we can have your P45 ready by 5pm.'

That sort of shit should not be kow-towed to under any circumstances. Likewise a Muslim woman insisting she cannot be left alone with a male colleague. We haven't come this far to start pandering to that sort of shite.

Too right LeaveMYWings!

They should have been dinged up front when they refused to be interviewed by a woman in the first place.

I think MN have made the right decision, considered reporting but didn't but it is a vile racist opening post and hate speech is illegal

And what Western ways shall we miss the most? Binge drinking, MacDonalds, or the need to buy a new Apple product every 10 mins?

At least people are free to do those things in the West. It's about being able to have those choices. I don't want to be told I can't have a drink and I don't want to be told I can't wear a skirt. If I want to do those things I will do without being punished for it!

@ArmySal

Agree it is pretty shoddy to ban the OP, if this thread is the only one they have started?

Poor form from MNHQ if so.

This is a very fair point, but we did also have reason to believe that the OP was a previously banned poster, so we felt justified in taking this course of action.

Ok fair enough then

sexism dismissed as cultural - couldn;t agree more and this is why I get pissed off at the constant assertion that it's only one religion or one 'culture' that's sexist and oppressive to women

Patriarchy can hide behind many things but it's still patriarchy - 'honour killing' is domestic abuse with a different name

We need to be careful of them and 'us'ing abuse and sexism - it needs challenging everywhere - but also lets stop seeing Asian women as some massive oppressed mass with no voice - like women everywhere they are all different and the ones I know wouldn;t stand for any bollox of anyone

I don't see the influx of more people as a threat to our liberal freedom - I would argue our liberalism is one of the biggest reasons these people want to come here - after all they are escaping Islamic extremism

SoVery Soveryupset - that is horrific - how can a woman become a manager then if she is given no one to manage? Is this even legal? Does religion trump equality? Makes me shiver. I have sons, but I also have nieces.

Its not legal to indirectly discriminate against women, and I suspect that this does constitute indirect discrimination at some point in the line. In fact, it might even be direct discrimination. At any rate, I cannot imagine a woman who refuses to be managed by a man being given a job in similar circumstances, and a female manager who was sidelined by being given a different from the usual quota of male employees to manage would be indirectly discriminated against.

What we have no answer to and what is becoming an increasing problem, is when there is a conflict between potential religious discrimination and the perceived need to avoid it, and sex discrimination.

Its actually quite clear from the Equalities Act and the case law what does constitute religious discrimination, so in this case the problem seems to be that HR have misinterpreted the law in favour of a radical interpretation of positive discrimination. HR departments get it wrong all the time, they forget that their duty is to apply the law as it stands, not to make it up as they go along, and they keep lawyers very busy.

But I do think we now need clarification in the law that sex discrimination trumps other types of discrimination where there is a conflict, not least in response to the increasing settlement in our country of those from a culture which does not recognise female equality.

I'm wondering how we cope with refugee numbers if there are already so many people without a home.

Maybe some councils will start building social housing again? Which would also bump the economy and give work to some unemployed and refugees?

Scremersford what have the unions said?

ghosty I get pissed off at the constant assertion that it's only one religion or one 'culture' that's sexist and oppressive to women

I haven't seen any assertions that it is only one culture that is sexist or oppressive towards women. I have seen lots of discussion of Muslim culture however.

But many Sharia countries' constitutions do actually discriminate against women, by granting them less rights, and by giving them less status than men. They may be subjected to different punishments and for different failures to obey the law that men are not subject to. Generally, it is correct to say that women are considered a chattel of their family or husband in many of these cultures (it was also the case in the UK until the law changed it!). Its very common in Sharia countries for the law to state that a woman's testimony is worth only half that of a man's in court, and in case of divorce to state that a woman's testimony is worthless. That is very common in various jurisdiction's interpretation of Sharia law.

Two thoughts really....

First - the refugees and economic migrants are here in Europe now, they aren't going home anytime soon. I'm more interested in how we we want people in society to behave from here on in. We need to enshrine it somehow.

Everyone here is equal
We live by the rules of hard work, fairness, kindness, good manners and tolerance.
You treat everyone with respect.
We tolerate and respect each other's religions and politics.
We are kind.
We work hard.
We share our joys and our sorrows.

If you feel you can't live by these strictures you face penalties whatever your ethnic background.

Secondly, I live in a big midlands city and we have real problems around attitudes to women and it is a real worry.

Women and men will cuss you out on the street for being a whore because of how you are dressed but they'll do it in another language because they think you don't understand them.
People will behave appallingly and when you call them on it they pretend not to speak English.
There are streets here where as a white woman you feel REALLY uncomfortable walking. There are places where migrants feel really uncomfortable because white folks are so unpleasant.
Every woman I know who runs has suffered sexual harrassment while she is running.
Women routinely ask permission from their menfolk to do things, like talk to a journalist, take a job, start a course or go out with non-community friends.
You can't referee kids at the park because someone will have a go at you for picking on their kid, I've been called a racist for stopping a kid battering another with a spade and my Hungarian friend has been told to 'p*ss off home' because she stopped a kid from braining itself on a see saw.
There are parks you can't take your kids because of the number of drunk Eastern Europeans who seem to think you arrive with kids, scooters, bags of snacks and water bottles ready for sex.

I have a friend who is a social worker and the number one reason here for kids being given up for adoption is now 'religious reasons'. They are Muslim girls so terrified of their parents reaction they disappear to college for a year, have their baby and when they come home no-one is any the wiser.
We have some terribly disabled kids because families are marrying too closely together.

A lot of this stems from really dysfunctional views on women, it is propagated through families and education and the school system isn't making much of a dent in people's deeply held views. THIS is why I worry for the future. This behaviour is condoned and accepted now and there is no sign it is changing.

but if practised properly Sharia law treats women as equal

again it's important not to get religion and politics mixed up - many countries oppress women - some of those are Islamic in nature - Saudi for example (one of our best mates in the middle east and one of the worst offenders) but also remember broadly Islamic nations have elected more women leaders that supposedly enlightened western ones - as it is the world over - people pick and chose the bits of law that suit their political agenda

but if practised properly Sharia law treats women as equal

Tell me more.

sorry I meant in accordance to the Koran - but law is influenced by local additions and also none Islamic ideas of 'women' which is where all the oppressive shit creeps in

I really only know what I have heard on radio4 over the years, and to me it sounds really unfair. But I have to admit, it's not something I've grown up with or know much about.

ghosty what you've just said explains perfectly why misogyny is not the fault of Islam but the fault of many of the men who practice it and who choose to interpret it in a way that allows them to oppress women and use Islam to justify doing so.

Great. Now tell me how knowing that that helps us when those men are living here in substantial numbers?