They're not refugees, we're being invaded

[goonthenflameme]

I admit, the Syrians have got it bad. There is a war and those boys who haven't been shot by ISIL are being conscripted by the President.

But if life is that bad, why do they only want to go to Germany and if they can't go then then they'll go back to Syria.

Why are we now seeing people from Kazakstan joining the throngs?

I agree that people from Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria need help. But the thougsands and thousands of people coming through can't all be refugees in dire need of help if they are so picky as to where they will live.

They're invading Europe. And we are letting them. What's going to happen in 20 years? Will Christianity and western ways be swept under the carpet?

" how convinced many are that British imperial history was a force purely for evil in the world. Does the same apply to other empires, or is it just the British one that we should fixate on? "

in this case, we are referring to Britain in relation to the ME as that was its 'sphere of influence'.

fgs BettyHotpot, I was not trying to 'sum it up' as anyone's 'fault' I am just mentioning aspects that often seem to be ignored in this discourse.

To sweep all of Christianity away because you don't like the Christian right, is a bit like saying that all Muslims are terrorist because of IS.

Straw man argument - I was not proposing 'sweeping aside' all Christianity, I am saying that I don't worry about its demise because I don't value it (or any religion actually, they are too easily exploited)

Talk to some real life participants - it's illuminating.

I feel like I've entered a parallel sphere of influence...

On the 'why is it only men coming' thing, it seems these poor people can't win

If you are stuck somewhere like Turkey, where it isnt really all that safe for you and you won't be able to make any sort of.life for.yourself, and you decide to put your kids in a boat to get somewhere else, and they drown on the journey? Then you are an 'irresponsible and selfish parent' who purposely put your child.in danger.

If you decide that actually yes, the journey is too dangerous for.your wife and kids, and so go alone, with the intention of.claiming asylum and then sending for them later on, then you are an 'irresponsible and selfish parent' who is willing to leave their family behind. That, or a secret ISIS member.

The lack of empathy around this whole thing is astounding. The question 'go on then, what would you do?' needs to be asked a bit more often I think.

That was tit for tat on being told to read a book! Sorry that I didn't resist.

TooMuch It's all very well to say you don't mind the demise of Christianity, but please bear in mind that much of the tolerant, relatively liberal social structure we have in the UK, focusing on individual rights and the rule of law, originates squarely in Christianity and arguably could not have developed without our religious history. So by all means shrug at the passing of majority practising Christians in our society, but be careful about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I'm pissed off that MN have banned the OP. Doesn't seem to be in the spirit of free speech. She has a right to ask the question and clearly there's value in the asking or we wouldn't all be here discussing it!

To be fair it's a commercial website not Speakers' Corner.

beaucoupdemojo I'm pissed off that MN have banned the OP. Doesn't seem to be in the spirit of free speech. She has a right to ask the question and clearly there's value in the asking or we wouldn't all be here discussing it!

Considering how left wing, right on, do-gooder mumsnet threads like this usually are (and were until recently) I can only assume that some of those posters were the ones who complained about this thread, rather than using reasoned argument. What a shame for them it is has not been shut down and continues to be a place for many non-racist but concerned people to post their thoughts and ask questions to gain a greater understanding.

Yes, despite my disagreeing with the OP, I am quite surprised that MN have banned them as well. I agree, not really in the spirit of free speech. Unless this is not their first OP.......?

It's a commercial website that has prided itself on open and free discussion. Banning people who raise unpopular points will lead to a narrowing of the kind of conversations we can have here, which doesn't bode well imo.

Again OTheHuge I completely agree with you, and I say that as someone who is pretty dismissive of organised religion.

Agree it is pretty shoddy to ban the OP, if this thread is the only one they have started?

Poor form from MNHQ if so.

Agreed. Freedom of speech is okay so long as it tows the party line, obviously.

:On the 'why is it only men coming' thing, it seems these poor people can't win

If you are stuck somewhere like Turkey, where it isnt really all that safe for you and you won't be able to make any sort of.life for.yourself, and you decide to put your kids in a boat to get somewhere else, and they drown on the journey? Then you are an 'irresponsible and selfish parent' who purposely put your child.in danger.

If you decide that actually yes, the journey is too dangerous for.your wife and kids, and so go alone, with the intention of.claiming asylum and then sending for them later on, then you are an 'irresponsible and selfish parent' who is willing to leave their family behind. That, or a secret ISIS member.

The lack of empathy around this whole thing is astounding. The question 'go on then, what would you do?' needs to be asked a bit more often I think.*

I don't think that people are suggesting that male refugees "should" (or should not) leave their wives and kids behind. I think people are suggesting that the predominance of men would tend to indicate that the majority of the people are probably economic migrants rather than refugees (a word that has a strict legal definition). Refugee movements tend to be fairly gender-balanced, which is why official estimates for worldwide refugee suggest a roughly 50:50 gender balance.

I don't think that being an economic migrant makes a man a bad/wicked person, I'm just saying that I don't think it's actually accurate or truthful to describe him as a refugee if he is not.

Agree it is pretty shoddy to ban the OP, if this thread is the only one they have started?

Poor form from MNHQ if so.

^^this

I was just reading that 100,000 children in England are officially homeless.

On 30 June, 66,980 individuals or families were registered homeless and awaiting a settled home - an increase of 12% from the same date in 2014.
Almost a third of the households, which included 99,080 children, had lost a home in the private rented sector.

I'm wondering how we cope with refugee numbers if there are already so many people without a home.

We can't just take people in and then not give them a home - can we?

I may be unduly influenced by where I was brought up Manatee - people from our church did some great things for the community but were also led to believe that shunning someone because they were divorced, for instance, was ok socially and ethically.

I would be genuinely interested in any reading on how christianity has shaped social/political life differently in different countries though.

I am afraid that sexism is ingrained in certain cultures, and with it comes the arrogance to pursue it. Let me give you an example.

We have a very big apprentice scheme at work and we have had a vast increase in young men (17, 18, 19 typically) of a certain religion/heritage demanding they are not interviewed and subsequently managed by a woman. These are all recorded on our HR systems.

Although I have come across sexism from across the board at work, I have NEVER come across the brazen attitude such as those, especially from such young men.

I think MNHQ do whatever is easiest, to shut up the noisy posters who want to shut down any disagreement, rather than actually look at whether a post really does contravene their site rules.

Squeakiest wheel gets oiled!

Ironic that we are talking about oppression of women's freedoms and some posters seem quite happy to help that process along by trying to shut down anything they don't like.

Soveryupset - what happens then- do they get their wish or do they just have to deal with a woman?

Unfortunately HR have often granted them their wish, against management advice - they appear to be more concerned about being seen as racist than sticking up for women's rights. I am very worried about what this will mean for future women - it's bad enough as it is...

Scremersford and Bluejug me too, in the 1990s. I worked with a number of young Turkish-German women and witnessed the crp they put up with from their menfolk. I knew girls who were married off at sixteen to men from “back home” who were barely literate and treated them like it was the 7th century. I knew a young woman who’d been a teenage bride and unhappily who was having an affair with a Turkish colleague. She feared being found out because “my husband and father will kill me, and yes she did mean it literally. These women were mostly born in Germany but their families chose to live as they did at home. One of my colleagues was Turkish born and raised in a fairly liberal middle class family in Izmir (married to a German man) and she was a big influence on them – she encouraged them to stand up for themselves, to refuse to wear the hijab, refuse to do what they were told. Some of them did, some of them didn’t. Knowing these women and their families and their lives up close had a huge effect on me and got rid of any wishy washy notions I might have had that all cultures are equal and that we should look the other way at this kind of misogynistic dark ages sht in our midst. It’s a horrible disservice to girls who are trying to break free.. I think you’ll find their experience is mirrored in the North African communities in France, the Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities in the UK. We don’t need more of it. We really don’t. Oh and ditto to the young Turkish men hanging around leering at German women. It was depressing.