They're not refugees, we're being invaded

[goonthenflameme]

I admit, the Syrians have got it bad. There is a war and those boys who haven't been shot by ISIL are being conscripted by the President.

But if life is that bad, why do they only want to go to Germany and if they can't go then then they'll go back to Syria.

Why are we now seeing people from Kazakstan joining the throngs?

I agree that people from Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria need help. But the thougsands and thousands of people coming through can't all be refugees in dire need of help if they are so picky as to where they will live.

They're invading Europe. And we are letting them. What's going to happen in 20 years? Will Christianity and western ways be swept under the carpet?

It's all getting gullist now.

Scremersford - it is a good thing that you can discuss this in RL. The two environments in which I work are:
a - working freelance with private foreign business people
b - working in a social quasi-goverment role with mostly disadvantaged people.

I do debate sometimes with my clients but cannot really challenge them or argue with them - they don't pay me to do that. I do listen to them though - and learn!

In my other role I deal with people who are threatened with homelessness or with losing their benefits or with the breakdown of their relationships. Many are immigrants, many are not good English speakers, all have come with a problem and need my help.

Because I am freelance I don't really have colleagues so it is only with friends that I can debate. I would say few people on here are as lucky as you are in this. It makes a huge difference to one's perspective on life to be able to do that.

oh right I must be really really stupid as I said that nothing happens in a vacuum and that the UK gov't has been playing God in the ME for over a century?
Oh yes I must be really really thick.
Idiots.

It's all getting gullist now.

We'd probably all be better off with the minds of seagulls.
They're better at sharing than we are

Seagulls round my way fight to the death for a chip!

Seagulls round my way fight to the death for a chip!

Yup. My point holds.

I don't know. I find the use of dots and question marks a bit... passive aggressive? If you have a point to make why not just... make it?

Right - got to do some work.

YABU and fascist and unpleasant and not the sort of person we want in the UK. Why don't you leave if you don't like the floods of foreigners? Go on join Katie Price

I did make it....?
But then I just got accused of being? an uneducated oik....?

Lisbeth and sorry but talking about the Picts and Celts is just ....disingenous if not out right plain silly.As I said, Britain has been playing God in the Middle East for at least a century. That is the century just past, not 2000 years ago.

I do find it honestly very shocking and quite horrific that in all Muslim-dominated countries there is no proper protection of even very basic human rights. Despite there being a good enough proportion of well educated people in government and in business to promote them.

Its not simply legalised, constitutionally enshrined oppression of women (limited right to vote, to do what they wish, access to employment, legally considered half or worse the value of a man's testimony in court, segregation of the sexes and the requirement to get permission from male relatives for many what we consider normal day to day activities such as driving a car), its the lack of prohibition of torture, the lack of accountability of government and proper democracy, the acceptance of modern day slavery/forced migrant labour and of exploitation of foreign workers from the Third World, a poor justice system which fails to investigate deaths of the former properly, an appalling health and safety record in industry, the forbidding of trade unions and political parties, the oppression of religious minorities, even in wealthy Muslim dominated countries.

Lisbeth is indeed being disingenuous when she blames all their woes on British invasion. Most Middle Eastern countries have been invaded and oppressed by their neighbours for much of their history, often due to intolerance of different ethnicities/religion. Far from being simply invasion, British protectorates often enjoyed a much higher standard of living and legal protections than neighbouring countries for the short time that it occurred.

Now who has a mind like THESE seagulls?

ffs I am not 'blaming all their woes' on anyone. Why do people always have to exaggerate and misrepresent other people's posts?
Britain has fucked up the Middle East in pursuit of oil, over the most recent 100 years. I was merely pointing that out. I think it is relevant to today's crisis.

there you go, Scot

I think theres more than enough knowledge and wealth in the Middle East to pass legislation protecting minorities and women. There is simply no desire to do so. And no vote for those who are so oppressed. In the period since Britain pulled out of the countries which comprised its empire, Europe has had two world wars and created the EU, which has installed the most comprehensive set of legal protections for all humans the world has ever seen. There has to be far more reason than simply a short period under British rule - which obviously doesn't explain the same situation in those ME countries where Britain had no influence. In fact, some countries previously under British rule do rather better than their neighbours - Botswana for example.

Afternoon all,

Thanks for your reports about this thread - we agree, it's a nasty inflammatory title and opening post so we've gone ahead and banned the OP.

However, we can see that there's a good discussion going on here so we're going to let the thread run for now. We're keeping it very much on our radar though, so please report anything that breaks our Talk Guidelines.

I do not believe (along with most people I know in reality) that today's Britain is particularly responsible for the Syrian situation or even that of the the wider middle east.

It's a fair point to ask how long can the failure of modern institutions and states be pinned on a particular historical era and it's events? Can we go back and pin the blame on the major historical split in Islam between Sunni and Shia? Personally I wouldn't.

Then again I know less about the globe than the average seagull I expect!

Agree Betty, it's an endless "thread" running through history. When does one stop?

" I do not believe (along with most people I know in reality) that today's Britain is particularly responsible for the Syrian situation or even that of the the wider middle east. "

(Love your name, hotpot) - maybe do some reading around it? and your real life friends?

I'm often intrigued by how convinced many are that British imperial history was a force purely for evil in the world. Does the same apply to other empires, or is it just the British one that we should fixate on? What about Dutch, French, Turkish, Austro-Hungarian, Visigothic or even Roman imperialism? What about the Arab empire that stretched all the way into Spain? Perhaps youth unemployment in southern Spain can be blamed on that and never mind that the Moors left centuries ago.

Most empires have some impressive cultural impacts and some dark history too. I think history will conclude that the impact of the British Empire was no worse than most empires, and better than some: at least a mixture of good and bad. Not the unmitigated source of evil, misery and racism that some paint it to be.

In my view the weird fixation many modern Brits have on the invidiousness of the British Empire is (besides being a reflection of patchy and tendentious history teaching in schools) a kind of humble-bragging: if we can't be proud of the empire, because we sold it to the Americans to pay for WWII, then we can at least inflate its negative consequences and make ourselves look virtuous by condemning it.

Lisbeth I have read over the years but also about things other than the British empire. I've also had friends and colleague from Syria, Iraq and one born in Palestine at the time of the British mandate (?Did I name that correctly?)

It's a very complicated world we live in.

I am sorry hotpot, but if you are not aware of how Israel was founded and by whom, and you think that Britain had nothing to do with it, nor with any 'oil war' then you really do need to do some reading.

sorry X post - yes Hotpot, horribly complicated I am afraid.
I have been v bogged down by the huge variety of history books written on the subject.

So stop trying to sum it up as Britain/the West's fault.