to think Corbyn is dead in the water

[oldshilling]

Yes he's a nice chap with a nice beard, but silliness (principled though it might be) like refusing to sing the national anthem is not going to endear him to more than a small minority of the population.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34263447

And the signs are that he intends to be the gift that keeps on giving, in terms of pointless gestures that don't really achieve anything but make him a mega-target for the right-wing press.

Either he gets turfed out before the next GE, or he surpasses Michael Foot as the biggest loser in Labour's history.

I can think of many vile people whose death wouldn't give me a moments concern.

Ian Brady, Robert Black, Ian Huntley and terrorist bastards who shoot children and behead and burn alive innocent hostages.

lalsy and very interesting links

Flash The point is that not everybody agrees with the Tories and they want their views to be heard.

The opposition party cannot pass legislation but they can certainly present a coherent argument, represent their constituents and influence public opinion.

Otherwise what is the point of parliament? If the job of the opposition is to hunker down and work out how to be elected in 2020, why don't we all save some money, close down the Houses of Parliament and let the government get on with things without interruption?

I suspect a good strategy for getting into government is to be an effective, coherent, convincing and engaging opposition.

Love this :-)

merrymouse very well put and I wholeheartedly agree with you. Being "unelectable" is only an issue if you have an election to win, and a lot can change in 4.5 years. England and Wales may go to the polls in 2020 as an no-longer-United Kingdom which has cut ties with Europe; if this happens, all bets are off.

In the meantime, the opposition needs to get down to making a decent job of opposing things and proposing constructive alternatives. I think they may find that they have some fellow travellers on the right, too. Not all Tories are fully signed up to the current government's vision, and some of them can even muster a principle or two between them .

(To puzzled)

Not all Tories are fully signed up to the current government's vision, and some of them can even muster a principle or two between them
and labour nu and old have principles then ?! (or were you getting at the voters who democratically elected the Conservatives)

mollie the point of this thread if I'm not mistaken is the question of whether it's better to have principles and remain in opposition, or to sacrifice your principles in order get elected. A lot of people seem to believe - and they may be right - that principles don't win elections and that parties and politicians need to be pragmatic/ cynical and give the electorate what they want.

There are plenty of cynical politicians on both sides. But in fairness to the Tories they also have a number of MPs who don't just nod through every government proposal - some are old-fashioned one nation Tories, some are libertarians with a strong commitment to civil liberties, and some are just a bit nutty (like the might-have-been defectors to ukip). You might be surprised by how much an old school leftie like me has in common with a one nation Tory like Clark or a libertarian like David Davis. I wouldn't necessarily vote for them but I think they have interesting things to say.