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Original poster

Barrister claiming sexism after Linked-In message

429 replies

Flashbangandgone · 10/09/2015 14:20

AIBU to think she's overreacting somewhat... I'm not sure so I thought I'd check out views on here:

www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/34206080/linkedin-sexism-row-charlotte-proudman-says-lawyer-used-site-like-tinder

She is clearly very attractive, and she has clearly gone to some trouble to post a photo that emphasises that. If a man compliments her for that, albeit rather clumsily, but nonetheless not in any lewd or crude manner, is that sexist or just a man gently flirting in the hope of a positive response?

If something as relatively innocuous as this appears to be is vilified as sexism, what are the boundaries for men flirting in a work-place environment without risking being charged with sexism? I wonder if her response would have been different if she had been single and she happenned to be attracted to the man making those remarks...

I've a feeling this might be controversial....

OP posts:
MrsTrentReznor · 10/09/2015 16:09

It was a private message. He didn't try and pull her on a public forum.

BarbarianMum · 10/09/2015 16:09

Don't believe some of these posts. So if a woman "approaches" a man - you know emails him, phones him, uses LinkedIn - in a professional capacity, she's inviting him to comment on her appearance?

That'll make for interesting job interviews then. All those women throwing themselves at men by sending them cvs. Hmm

Narp · 10/09/2015 16:10

Oh give over OP

ItchyArmpit · 10/09/2015 16:11

  1. She is clearly very attractive, and she has clearly gone to some trouble to post a photo that emphasises that
    No, sorry. I agree she's clearly attractive, but I think she has gone to some trouble to post a photo that looks as professional as possible and as least sexual as possible. Let's rein in the instinct to victim-blame.

  2. Lots of people do meet at work. I don't have a problem with that. In this professional situation, however, the power balance is skewed. He's a senior partner, she is 27 and trying to build her career. He therefore has more professional clout than she does. Do you think he'd've sent that kind of message to someone who he thought had more power than him? No, because that could have negatively impacted on his career. And he didn't think it would be a problem (although he admits in the message that he shouldn't say it) because of his position. It's a straight-up abuse of power.

Actually, although I'm usually in favour of the protection of individual privacy, I can see why Proudman chose to make this public. It means that when at some point in the future there is the possibility of them working together in some way and Carter-Silk says "No, I just don't think she'd do a great job" everyone present will know it is because she turned him down.

LinkedIn is a professional environment and people should regard everything posted on there as 'in the public domain', imo.

ItchyArmpit · 10/09/2015 16:12

Sorry, everything they post

lotrben17 · 10/09/2015 16:50

i thought it was sleazy, but the guy is clever enough to know that he had to be softly softly because the rules have changed, so old sleaze-bags have to be a bit more subtle these days! Felt sorry for his wife, I can't see how this could ever be justifiable. I don't think the woman was wrong to call him out however she felt to do this.

Cerseirys · 10/09/2015 16:52

Makes you wonder how he treats the young women who are junior to him at his firm...

CoraPirbright · 10/09/2015 17:02

Was this man a totally unprofessional, sleazy, sexist dinosaur? Absolutely.

Should women be allowed to get on with their lives without their physical appearance being in any way relevant? Absolutely.

Has this woman shot herself in the foot by being so spectacularly graceless and downright aggressive over this? Absolutely.

I heard her on the Vanessa F show this am and she sounded so ghastly and po-faced that no one is going to want to employ her for fear of saying the wrong thing and being hauled over the coals. She is absolutely right to be annoyed about the whole thing but a withering put-down would have been so much better than all this. And I would be very careful about bandying around the word 'mysoginist' - there are far far worse things going on in the world which are properly mysoginistic and she should know this, being an expert on FGM fgs.

abbieanders · 10/09/2015 17:06

Has this woman shot herself in the foot by being so spectacularly graceless and downright aggressive over this? Absolutely.

In your not very humble opinion. But you aren't the sole arbiter, so, you know. ..

ShebaShimmyShake · 10/09/2015 17:08

"She is clearly very attractive, and she has clearly gone to some trouble to post a photo that emphasises that."

Oh shut up. It's not a crime to be young and pretty, and it's not a crime to use a photo that's a fair indication of how you look. There's nothing provocative about that picture, it's not her fault she's attractive and she's not obliged to wear a bag over her head or smear soot all over her face in order to receive professional, respectful responses from a business linking website.

I have honestly freaking had it with people implying that women are to blame for men being inappropriate and creepy.

sparechange · 10/09/2015 17:11

Apologies for the Daily Fail link, but someone has found that he commented on a photo of his daughter in the gym with the following:
"Whilst I should not encourage lascivious comments about my daughter ... Yeee gods she is hot!!"

Anyone still want to try and claim this man isn't a creepy perv with a warped attitude towards women..?
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3229413/Is-time-quit-social-media-lawyer-called-young-female-barrister-stunning-LinkedIn-caught-commenting-photo-DAUGHTER-Yeee-gods-hot.html

Cerseirys · 10/09/2015 17:11

Has this woman shot herself in the foot by being so spectacularly graceless and downright aggressive over this? Absolutely.

Yes, if only women would be NICER when they were harassed by men...

LeChien · 10/09/2015 17:11

When someone posts a photo in a public place meant for sharing professional details and networking, it's fair to assume that they should be be taken seriously for qualifications and experience, not for looks.

Someone on the thread in chat mentioned that she'd already had similar messages before, perhaps this was the straw that broke the camel's back.
I think she did the right thing. Crap like this will carry on happening until women start making a stand.
It's not that long ago when waitresses were expected to put up with regular gropes and pats on the bottom, thank god we're moving away from this.

CheesyNachos · 10/09/2015 17:12

cross post spare.

Gruntfuttock · 10/09/2015 17:19

In both cases Carter-Silk begins by acknowledging that he is about to say something he shouldn't, and then goes ahead and says it, so it's not as if he speaks without thinking, is it?

To Charlotte Proudman:-
"I appreciate that this is probably horrendously politically incorrect but that is a stunning picture!!!!"

About a photo of his daughter:-
"Whilst I should not encourage lascivious comments about my daughter ... Yeee gods she is hot!!"

The latter really made me shudder, because it seems he looked at his daughter and thought "Phwoooaar!"

abbieanders · 10/09/2015 17:22

Indeed. Seems odd that he's more worried about encouraging than making lascivious remarks about his daughter, which does indicate a somewhat individual approach to these matters.

ShebaShimmyShake · 10/09/2015 17:24

It doesn't surprise me that a man who's entitled, creepy and leery enough to respond like that to a professional approach on LinkedIn should be so revolting with his own daughter as well. But then again, he's probably spent his life creeping women out and making them uncomfortable, and had the same response as the OP - what he did isn't that bad, but my God the women are overreacting and anyway they're attractive and not wearing burkas so what's the big deal?

This attitude is why so many men think it's appropriate to leer at my tits and even grab me in public - because society is more concerned about policing how women respond to harassment, subtly blaming them for it in the first place, than about telling men to take some fucking personal responsibility. Fucks me right off.

When I was 14, a kid in school groped me in the school corridor between classes and I shoved him right into the wall. For some reason, he didn't report it (why didn't I report it? Why, because I was always told sexual harassment wasn't a big enough deal to defend myself aggressively!), but I wonder who would have got into more trouble if he had...

CheesyNachos · 10/09/2015 17:26

Your second paragraph Sheba is EXACTLY what I think...... but cannot articulate nearly as well.

Narp · 10/09/2015 17:27

God Lord

What an absolute arse he is

ShebaShimmyShake · 10/09/2015 17:33

Thanks, Cheesy :)

The funny thing is that I am actually quite kinky, and in the right circumstances, with my trusted partner. The key issue is consent and circumstance, especially consent. One might allow a trusted partner (or two, or three, if that's your thing) to do and say certain things within a consensual context, but that doesn't mean every leery shithead on LinkedIn can do the same. Even if you are young and pretty and use a professional headshot that shows how you happen to look (BURN THE WITCH).

Original poster
Flashbangandgone · 10/09/2015 17:35

Interesting comments....

Having considered this all further, I do think it was inappropriate for him to approach her in LinkedIn in this way. It was mildly sleazy and creepy. I certainly wouldn't be rushing to respond positively if messaged like that.

But, I'd stress the word mild... He said her photo was stunning, no more, nothing crude, nothing sexual. To have gone public was an over-reaction - a bit like giving a ten-year term for stealing a packet of sweet.

It's also a tactical mistake I believe. Now we have moved past the days when leering, cat-calling and overtly sexual comments are acceptable (and a good thing too), if we completely silence the likes of Carter-Silk and his very mild, though telling, comments, we don't given them the opportunity to out themselves. Receiving this, I'd have been tempted to bin it and avoid. If he hadn't, it would have taken me longer to realise, and my time would have been wasted. Give them just enough rope to hang themselves...

OP posts:
ShebaShimmyShake · 10/09/2015 17:40

You see, Flashbang, there you go...you don't care too much that he was creepy and inappropriate in what is supposed to be a professional environment, but you cared enough about the woman talking about it in public to create a thread about it here.

Leering, catcalling and overtly sexual comments are absolutely acceptable in our society, much as they shouldn't be. Or rather, it's a bit more subtle than that (because they wouldn't get away with it if we called it like it is). We might sort of suggest they're not very nice in the same wet blanket way you've described this particular creep, but we'll come down much, much harder on the women who don't accept it as nicely or as quietly as they bloody well ought to. Especially if they've got headshots on LinkedIn while being young and pretty, right?

You are part of the problem. Next time, make a thread telling us you can't believe that in 2015, a professional woman can't use a business networking website without gratuitous comments being made about her fuckability.

It never fails to amaze me how many people think that men being shits to women in public isn't that bad, but women talking in public about it are overreacting and overemotional.

Narp · 10/09/2015 17:43

Flash

He did out himself though. Anyone with half a brain knows that what he said was a sexual comment. He's not being clever, and it's sad that anyone should buy into his pathetic excuses and then blame the woman for being assertive enough to call him on it