AIBU to wonder why the hungarian authorities don't allow those people to leave budapest?

[ThisIsStartingToBoreMe]

I don't get it, they obviously don't want them there, so why aren't they letting them carry on to Germany like they want to?

Me too Chipstick but we are vile to voice our worries.

Abdullah Kurdi and his family had been living in Turkey for 3 years, they had a home and jobs. It is unlikely that little Aylan had ever spent long periods of time in Syria.

They were not fleeing war torn Syria. They had been safe for years.

these souls desperate not to be murdered by ISIS should be shared around the (safe) globe, not just Europe. Why Europe anyway?

Quite, and this does seem to be an emerging theme in the debate

I agree it's all extremely alarming and I think it's unfair to criticise those expressing perfectly understandable fears
It is possible to have fear and compassion ?

Migration for a better life has always made people move that's how America was built

Well, that and slavery & genocide. (I'm descended from slave-owning genocidal zealots).

I've written before, but on an earlier thread.

Addressing a few of the questions raised earlier about Germany and refugees:

I live in Berlin, just a few minutes away from the offices where people, like those you are writing about, go to apply for asylum. There are about 2000 people at any time waiting in line. About 200 people/families get processed daily, and some of them end up camping there for at least 4 days.

I daily pass and/or interact with people coming from or going to there. Most are Arabic speakers. Many are family groups, including women and children.

You want to see the age/gender composition of who they are? Google lageso images.
(LaGeSo is the name of the government department handling the applications)

Our neighborhood has set up a group to organise volunteers and donations. Their list of what is needed is updated daily.

So, using that list as well as local newspaper reports to answer some of the questions raised:
interpreters are needed who speak Arabic, Kurdish, Farsi (Persian), and Serbian. That gives a pretty good idea of the nationalities involved.

Where refugees stay: unused schools, banks, and government buildings have been converted into hostels. Long term tent villages have been erected in various parks. Shipping containers have been converted into housing and set up in some areas. There are also worse options, such as being given a so-called hostel voucher. It's meant to be a government guarantee to a hostel-owner that the government will pay for the people/family to stay there. It hasn't worked well, with refugees being turned away, or fleeced out of money.
Some of the people end up sleeping out in the open in the parks around here. This area of Berlin is predominately Turkish rather than German, and has been gradually becoming more Arab than Turkish as time goes by. Between the two, it means there are quite a few mosques, and they've been helping out with accommodation too.

The neighborhood group to assist refugees had an article a while back talking about a Syrian family sent to Hungary. The article said that the food provided in Hungary in refugee hostels was mouldy and inedible, and if one wanted something edible, payment (i.e. kickbacks) were demanded. As one had no income as a refugee, you either starved, or you begged, stole, or prostituted yourself in order to live.

Whether that is true, I don't know. But if true - or if believed by potential refugees - then it would certainly explain why people would try to travel beyond Hungary.

Yes YeOld sorry I missed that huge part of history out

The article said that the food provided in Hungary in refugee hostels was mouldy and inedible, and if one wanted something edible, payment (i.e. kickbacks) were demanded

Really?

Kickbacks over starving vulnerable people?

thenight yes.

I think the problem here is mainly ISIS.

How on earth does any country root ISIS out?

What does an ISIS supporter look like?

Its a new enemy, I mean we all knew who the Nazi's were.

We know ISIS has a world wide goal, we know there is a threat already in our own countries from fanatics. The biggest threat is from fanatics from abroad who have been trained.

We know ISIS wants to infiltrate other countries.

We have a situation of hundreds of thousands of young men wanting assulym.

I do believe one reason other nations more removed are cautious is due to ISIS.

Putting

like I said, I don't know personally if it's true. But why do you think unscrupulous people would not exploit the desperate?

I do know that there are cases in Berlin of refugees getting the hostel voucher, and unscrupulous hostel owners tricking them out of hundreds of Euros as the 'usual fee' to move into a place, then kicking them after a couple of days, so that the refugees are both homeless, and even more run down on their savings than before. There explicit warnings given out to the refugees on this in German. I doubt most of the refugees can read the warnings, but hopefully volunteer translators and word of mouth helps a bit.

I suspect a whole lot of empathy has been lost by the behaviour of the train protesters. They were safe. They were to be given shelter and food in a safe place while they were processed legally. Not good enough for them though

^^ This

BMW6 I'm also glad I'm not the only person who remembers ISIS saying they'd infiltrate europe through such means. It's absolutely right for us to help genuine refugees, but it has to be done properly ... the risk to host nations is just too great otherwise

You'd think Greece would be biting his hand of

www.forbes.com/sites/mfonobongnsehe/2015/09/04/egyptian-billionaire-offers-to-buy-mediterranean-island-for-refugees/

Get some cash and sort the refugees a new home

'We know ISIS has a world wide goal, we know there is a threat already in our own countries from fanatics. The biggest threat is from fanatics from abroad who have been trained.
We know ISIS wants to infiltrate other countries.
We have a situation of hundreds of thousands of young men wanting assulym.
I do believe one reason other nations more removed are cautious is due to ISIS'

I'm inclined to agree Puttingoutfire :(

it's hard not to feel as if there is some kind of invasion going on

EnthusiasmDisturbed Just keep thinking of Aylan Kurdi that picture tells a million stories

I've posted this elsewhere. But oh well...

As bad as it is that a Syrian child had to drown in the sea, captured by cameras, let's not forget there are wars elsewhere, too.

In Africa, children die in war ALL THE TIME. In fact, there have been downright massacres. But no one cares. No one offers asylum whatsoever. It hardly even gets a column in the newspaper. The UN now calls for the EU to take in refugees, but did nothing whatsoever about Zimbabwe.

I wonder why people suddenly care about this one event. Very likely because they saw a picture of a dead child dressed in normal clothes that could have been worn by one of their own.

When people see the pictures of African children dead in their war-torn countries, in tattered clothes their own children would never be seen in, they might give some money to charity. But is there ever an outcry? Do people ever say, open the gates and let them in?

Despite there being unspeakable violence in those countries - more so than the stories we hear from Syria, and for a much longer time period - the answer is 'No'.

Because those children are so, so different from their own children. They're so used to see the suffering of those children on TV every year on Red Nose Day that they turn a blind eye.

I am pretty sure that a lot of the people commenting on this thread that are shattered by what happened have never given thought to those kids. Sad that this hypocrisy exist.

And now, I would like to ask people. If we offer asylum to Syrians in the EU. Will we do so for those affected in Africa? There would be millions.

I'd really like to know the answer.

KittyLane1 Abdullah Kurdi and his family had been living in Turkey for 3 years, they had a home and jobs. It is unlikely that little Aylan had ever spent long periods of time in Syria.

They were not fleeing war torn Syria. They had been safe for years.

THAT I didn't know!!! That would make them not refugees but economic migrants. If he had a home and job, and was safe (!), then I'm sorry to say this... he should have been happy with what he had, and not risk the dinghy ride!!!

SnowBells I agree with many of your points. I think Africa is seen as other so the people of Africa are seen that way. Many many people do help by giving money to charities that support change in African countries and have done for many years but agree no we would not be opening our arms to welcome refugees should they decide to come to Europe. I said in my earlier post we would not be so welcoming if what was happening in Hungary was happening here it is still happening over there we just know it is going to have an impact on us, people are worried which is understandable when you see the news and we have a right wing agenda controlling much of our media which does not help Europe as a whole as we are talking about hundreds of thousands of men, women and children and more will follow. We have to help European countries have to all work together to help at the moment it is just utter chaos and that will in itself cause more problems as these people are desperate they need to feel safe.

I posted about the photo of Aylan Kurdi because that picture tells so much it has got to people it's tugfed at their hearts it's made some wake up it's show the absolute desperation people feel that they will take such risks to get to safety. And we are talking about the refugee crises in Europe that we have not seen anything like this in Europe since WW2 ended. We also have been involved in wars in the Middle East, culturally we are closer to middle eastern countries, we have vested interest (oil) in the ME, we have young men and women who are British who have gone out to Syria to fight for Isis our ties are much stronger to Syria.

And they were not safe in Turkey Isis are on the border Turkey has been accused of colluding with Isis

They had returned home earlier in the year but fled again they had no status in Turkey they are just there living in temporary shelter with the constant fear of being sent back

They were hoping to join family in Canada tondo this they had no choice but to smuggle themselves out of Turkey

FWIW I think the billionaire's offer to buy an island is the best solution. Of course we all want to offer asylum, but once we do, in a few years' time, there will be problems and resentments simply because of the differing cultures, hopes and expectations, assumptions and childhood conditioning etc etc. That applies to all of us, European born and bred or otherwise.

To give these people a new space of their own, with a good and safe future would, I think, be the happiest solution for everyone.

It would have to be quite a big Greek island though wouldn't it?

Yes pissedoff it would! I can't think of any other solution except that we need to find another planet. 40 years ago that seemed like one of those futuristic ridiculous ideas but maybe it's an idea that needs exploring. Imagine. I feel too old (nearly 50) to sign up as one of the first settlers, but I might have done if were younger....

I am going to try and articulate this as best as I can so it does not sound harsh, I'll admit right away that I do not have all of the facts, no one does, which is the big problem.

No one has any idea what exactly is going on. No one knows who these people are. The men at Calais, the people walking across Hungry, the people in Kos, the people in Germany, we can call them what we like but at the end of the day they are all individual people with different reasons for moving.
Not everyone of them will be a lovely little 2.4 family with a heart full of dreams, clinging on to the hope of a new life. And certainly not everyone of them will be chancers.
But there is a good change of a wide range mix of people in there, good and bad and we have no way of determining who is who?
Who is leaving IS and who is bringing IS here? Who is fleeing in terror and who is following instructions?

Aylan Kurdi has tragically become a poster boy for the Syrian plight and yet new information about the family is being revealed that doesn't fit with what we have been told.

His aunt has already been caught out in a lie. Most people didn't realise they had a life in Turkey, with a house, a job and family with them.

So if we cannot even get correct information about the most "famous" "world recognised" refugee then how can we possible get the facts on everyone else? We can't.
People are burning off their fingertips to prevent being ID'd now I'm going to take a wild guess and assume they are not hiding parking fines.

Also lets not assume that just because someone is a women they are automatically safe, IS has plenty of female members, and they will largely go unchallenged.

It's scary, and I can see no obvious course of action, I just hope our world leaders have a plan.

Well said Kitty

Even if they are not direct emissaries of Isis these people will still import their ideologies, religious beliefs and ways of living...some of which created the situations from which they want to escape.

Presume they seek the fruits of our way of life, but will still want to continue with their way of life?

FWIW I think the billionaire's offer to buy an island is the best solution

Yes but even that island will have a limit on the number of people it can let on. A finite amount of water, sanitation, resources.

People are burning off their fingertips to prevent being ID'd now I'm going to take a wild guess and assume they are not hiding parking fines

really odd why they would do this.

The best solution is to get rid of assad and get rid of ISIS but we cant get rid of assad and we cant rid of ISIS.

anzu and puttingoutfire I'd be quite sceptical about kickbacks needed to be fed in the refugee camps in Hungary.
However the camps were originally built for about 2-3000 people max. For the whole country. It is also very hot ( above 30 degrees) so food does not keep.
According to The Guardian the UN also only provided 9% of the necessary emergency funding. It is a poor country, cannot afford more.

One thing is sure though, when the media spotlight is not on Hungary, there will be hell to pay from Austria and Germany for not keeping the Schengen borders and letting the refugees across. They will lose their visa free place in the Schengen zone, but there are fears of being thrown out of the EU altogether.
It seems to me that the Dublin agreement was meant to ensure that refugees do not reach or settle in richer countries, and now it lost its purpose.