To keep shouting, they are refugees! !!

[ginmakesitallok]

And not migrants!!!!

The people who are dying on Europe's shores are not migrants! They are not coming to Europe for jobs, for benefits, because they think it will be an easy life. They are escaping war, ISIS, starvation, rape, death. They just want to live and give their children an opportunity to live.

Stop calling them migrants, as if they just fancy living somewhere else. Brits rearing abroad are migrants. Other eu residents coming here are migrants. The dead baby on a beach in Greece was a refugee.

The Saudis and the other oil rich states should be taking most of the refugees. They are the ones who have funded (sunni) ISIS and ISIS are the ones causing the problems in Syria and Iraq. Funny how the "ummah" goes out of the window when it comes to helping their fellow Muslims and instead infidel Europe should take them all!

Arabs demanding their governments help

I said at the very start of this thread that people are forced away from their homes by 'geopolitics' and I stand by that, but I suppose more accurately it should be 'geoeconomics' - the two are of course linked.

As long as the difference between the world's haves and have-nots is so unimaginably vast, the flow of migration will only keep increasing.
IMO we live in a time of great transition, away from the automatically assumed leadership of the North/West of the planet.
Times, they are a-changing. Whether we like it or not.

And I think ethically speaking, it's about time that they change.

I've taken my children on boats before sometimes in dangerous waters but I do think in this case the father went too far in making that journey in balancing risk against the risks in Turkey.

Yes why aren't these people escaping to Dubai or Saudi or Iran or India or Nigeria (which has huge wealth and oil and also is 50% muslim)?

I've taken my children on boats before sometimes in dangerous waters

Fleeing from war and violent oppression?

Across the Serpentine maybe?

How sad, Janet, how sad.

Janet, really?!
Yes, we were out on rather rough waters last weekend. It was a bit scary.
But it had been our choice, we were well-equipped, we were well-fed and we were not leaving everything we ever knew behind. We turned back when it got too much. The dog puked - that was the worst that happened.

We have no idea what made this father make the decisions he made. Or rather, I shudder to imagine.

Good question Janet why arent they? You'd think if safety were the only issue then a country closer to home in every sense, geographically, religiously and culturally would be preferable, wouldn't you?

Assuming you even had half a chance of being accepted/welcomed by your rich Gulf 'brothers' and 'sisters' of course.

Also lots of these migrants (not refugee status) are Nigerian leaving places like Libya because they it is no longer comfortable or economically advAntageous for them. They could go back to Nigeria but they don't.

Yes, why aren't they fleeing to those countries?

Maybe there are considerations other than 'benefits'? Human rights? Democracy? Freedom? Education? State and religion separated from each other?

"Isis are advancing into areas previously controlled by Turkey and the US,Janet.
I know there is no reasoning with you, but Turkey is not entirely safe".

This is geopolitically illiterate. Turkey has the largest force in NATO. Any spreading of the Syrian conflict onto Turkish territory - - ie. If ISIS attempted to take Turkish border towns or fired on Turkish border towns - - would trigger a NATO response and would lead to a declaration of war. This would mean ever country in NATO would declare war on ISIS.

As it is, Turkey has already requested NATO discussion under Article 4. The sticking block is that they have included insurrection from the PKK, and other members of NATO are unhappy with that inclusion.

Nevertheless, Turkey is extremely safe. If it came to a conflict environment, you would be safer as a Turkish national in Turkey than many European countries.

Put it this way, in a climate of total war, I'd rather be a Turkish in Turkey than Polish in Poland.

Janet
The vast bulk of Syrian refugees are in Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt. There were Syrian refugees in my DH's country in North Africa when we were there this summer. People are not just fleeing to Europe.

Interesting read

If you can get past the first couple of paragraphs

"the collapse of global poverty" - again, really?!

The gap between the richest countries (and individuals) and the poorest is widening.
I truly believe the flow of people will continue and increase for decades.
And we should plan for that, rather than pull the draw-bridges up.

Werks, the difficulty is that Kurdish Syrian refugees would not be Turks in Turkey.

Hungary said that!?

I've been struggling to keep up due to other aspects of life being overwhelming but good God, if that is the attitude then things are very bad.

I can't believe the attitude of some people 'Why aren't they going anywhere but here?' When we have taken so very many few. What makes us so special that we can't help?

Yes, I read that. In the past, the poor stayed where they were, and now, fairly reasonably, they have the information and the means to move around the world. Millions moving to Europe will not result in everyone living in a four-bedroomed house, good job, free NHS etc etc. The impact will be on those already struggling. Governments will not be able to provide benefits to which we've all become accustomed; there will be a huge black economy and increased crime.

We've already seen that people do not want to spread around evenly: they want to stick together and are only interested in certain countries. That's all pretty reasonable - if I were going to live somewhere unfamiliar I'm sure I'd try to find an English-speaking community where I could maintain my English life. BUT - this is going to cause chaos when there are millions of low or non-skilled people hoping to access homes and services.

IS takes villages
Thank you for the illiterate comment Werks was it entirely necessary?

MILLIONS of Syrians went to neighbouring countries. Lebanon and Turkey took the most, the figures are in the millions.
I am a migrant, not the same as fleeing war and terror.

True ChazsBrilliantAttitude I live in Brazil, Brazil took 7,000 Syrian refugees, mostly of family members already here. Germany officially took over 30,000! The USA took nearly 14,000. I think the figure for the UK was only 187 actually granted official refugee status, over 6000 unofficially but even then far below that of other countries official records. Appalling..

Dear Lord. Just Google Turkey and Kurdish and you'll see why it's not at all safe for Syrian Kurds to be there. The level of ignorance is astounding on this thread.

Nor for that matter would Turkey be a safe country. Do people not watch the news? It wasn't so long ago that their despotic, misogynistic leader was hosing and tear gassing innocent people on a peaceful protest for daring to speak out against the government.

LZ, The level of ignorance is astounding on this thread.

Yes, and with this statement: "Just Google Turkey and Kurdish and you'll see why it's not at all safe for Syrian Kurds to be there", you are falling into this category. For why, see below.

IJ, the difficulty is that Kurdish Syrian refugees would not be Turks in Turkey.

Kurds comprise between 18 to 25 percent of the Turkish population. Some estimates put the Kurdish population of Turkey at up to 25 million. They are a minority, but not a minority in the sense we might perceive one to be in Britain. In reality, they are a vast proportion of the populace.

If you are saying that it is not safe for Syrian Kurds to be in Turkey, then you are saying that up to one in five Turkish nationals are not safe in their country. This is, frankly, ludicrous.

DDA Thank you for the illiterate comment Werks was it entirely necessary?

Yes, it was. There has been no incursion onto Turkish sovereignty by ISIS forces. ISIS has taken Syrian villages near to the Turkish border; this is not the same as taking Turkish vilages. If ISIS attempted to take a Turkish village, it would trigger a NATO alert, been seen as an Act of War, and Britain would be bound, if requested, to provide military assistance, which may very well mean boots on the ground.

This is very serious stuff. You don't fuck about with it.

LZ Nor for that matter would Turkey be a safe country. Do people not watch the news? It wasn't so long ago that their despotic, misogynistic leader was hosing and tear gassing innocent people on a peaceful protest for daring to speak out against the government.

It was actually to protest a square being turned into barracks.

And Western countries do the same. Britain used both tear gas and water cannon in Northern Ireland. Indeed, London has purchased new water cannon capacity in the last four years. You get an incident in London that threatens to be equal to the scale of the London riots, and you may very well see water cannon employed in the capital's streets.

Blair was this close to employing water cannon in the early noughties with the anti-globalisation riots.

It is important to say here that I have a deep animosity towards Erdogan, his values, beliefs and tactics. The man, to my mind, is dangerous and playing a long game ... but it is important to be correct about these issues.

Indeed. There are 14.5m kurds in Turkey just as 1 in 10 people arep robably gay in countries where gays are discriminated against, just as probably at least 50% opf women in Africa are hit by their husbands and just as 80%+ of Somali girls have their genitals gut open - are those gong to be groudns to come to the UK? What much lower standard of living and remove of all tax credits and much higher tax rates are mumsnetters prepared to accept to accommodate these people? Would you share your home with 4 other families? Would you accept a 50% drop in your income? Would you be happy with classes of 60+ in schools?

Agree, Janet. The numbers who could potentially claim asylum is in the many millions. Europe is in a perilous position. It won't be about welcoming a few grateful families into your community, but, as I posted up the page, a complete sea change. When there are no benefits, a bare minimum NHS and lawlessness (from indigenous population as well as newcomers) I think some people might reconsider their "Refugees Welcome" placards.

Yanbu.