To keep shouting, they are refugees! !!

[ginmakesitallok]

And not migrants!!!!

The people who are dying on Europe's shores are not migrants! They are not coming to Europe for jobs, for benefits, because they think it will be an easy life. They are escaping war, ISIS, starvation, rape, death. They just want to live and give their children an opportunity to live.

Stop calling them migrants, as if they just fancy living somewhere else. Brits rearing abroad are migrants. Other eu residents coming here are migrants. The dead baby on a beach in Greece was a refugee.

We could swap ten UK families out of B and B accomadation and replace them with ten refugee families

Janet - in response to your question as to why the family was leaving Turkey:

syrianrefugees.eu/?page_id=80

Such a response has come with substantial cost, and by May 2013 the Turkish government had spent around $1.5 billion (€1.6 billion) on accommodating Syrian refugees. The rising price tag has now forced the Turkish government to seek international support for an operation that, at the beginning, was guarded as a government responsibility. Now UNHCR and other groups have much greater access to the refugees than they did at the beginning, but the Turkish government still maintains a large degree of control over the camps.

Turkey has accorded temporary protection to Syrians on their territory, which precludes forced repatriation, however legally they are not refugees in Turkey but ‘guests’. Turkey is a signatory to the 1951 UN Convention on Refugees, however because of a geographic exception written into the original document it is only obligated to accept refugees from European nations. Thus, Syrians in Turkey do not have access to all the legal safeguards accorded to refugees elsewhere, and those seeking permanent resettlement must look to a third nation.

You know even economic migrants can be fleeing from starvation. I understand the distinction people are making but it is turning into a blanket condemnation of economic migrants and nowadays, when wages are so incredibly low in some parts of the world, like Mexico where I live, the only way to survive is by emigrating.

No, they were not safe and sound in Turkey. Partly for the reasons set out by Cricket, and partly because they were Kurds who are not historically welcome there.

What about all the people in Hungary? The PM there has said that no one wants to stay there, or in Poland or Estonia. They only want to get to northern Europe. The hordes of chanting young men is quite a frightening sight. They are trampling over families. If these were British men I'm sure MN would be up in arms.

To just answer the original OP I'm currently watching BBC North West Tonight and Roger Johnson did just use the word refugee rather than immigrant/migrant.

I agree with you RhodaBull. They are in a safe country and have passed safe countries yet they are shouting and demanding. If I was fleeing rape and torture I would be kissing the ground .

Would you, or would you want to get as far away as possible? The Hungarians are rejecting the refugees and as with Turkey they have no rights. Perhaps they're just looking for a country where they are likely to be safe and to have some sort of human rights.

They are refusing to go into the designated camps now.... That's where they would get processed. But they want to only get to Germany. No other safe place. Thousands and thousands cannot all go there..... The car and facilities set up for them will deteriorate under the strain

But they were Kurds. Kurds are not safe in Turkey.

Sorry turkish but I find your comment "all those "I live in London blah blah". I work in this environment." So f*ing patronising. How dare you. You feel free to make sweeping statements (your call) but how dare you think you have the ultimate right to decide what the situation is in London and how locals feel about it.
I'm a tax payer, lived here for years, raised a family. Very familiar with day to day irritations the average Londoner experiences.
But hey obviously I'm just ignorant. Personally I think we could do masses more than we currently are for the luckless people currently trying to get into Europe.

Are Hungary rejecting the migrants on the trains? I thought the current situation is that there was a train of migrants refusing to get off a train just outside Budapest because they want to go elsewhere, and don't want to be registered in Hungary as the first safe country they reach.

The figures for Poland, Ireland, Bulgaria and the Czech Republic for acceptance of asylum seekers is in the low hundreds/thousands and much lower than the UK, Switzerland, Germany, etc.. Note how I changed from the use of migrant to refugee deliberately.

Should the parents bear no responsibility for endangering their children's lives because they do not wish to stop at the first safe country they reach but want to press on for somewhere richer? Isn't Turkey and certainly Hungary far, far safer than parts of Syria?

I feel so sorry for the two little boys and their mother. But they didn't due because the UK is not accepting more refugees. The parents took the risk because they thought they would get asylum.
The only way to stop children during like thus is either have more sea patrols or allow Syrians to claim asylum in Europe from Syria or any other land connecting country.. And then grant them asylum. It would mean many more refugees though. Probably far more than Europe could support.
I think a sceam that offered temporary asylum would be better

Yep that's what I took from this evenings news elke

Hungary doesn't want them. Their PM put this statement out

"All countries have a right to decide whether they want to live with large numbers of Muslims in their countries. If they want to, they can. We don't want to, and we have a right to decide we do not want a large number of Muslim people in our country.
"We do not like the consequences of having large numbers of Muslim communities that we see in other countries, and I see no reason for anyone to force us to create ways of living together.
"Therefore, there are differences."

I don't know about them refusing to go to camps but the Hungarians are not letting them through to Austrian - something to do with the Schengen rules. Theyre being met with hostility so I can hardly blame them for wanting to get away as soon as possible.

*Austria, not Austrian!

he figures for Poland, Ireland, Bulgaria and the Czech Republic for acceptance of asylum seekers is in the low hundreds/thousands and much lower than the UK

How odd particularly Poland where there has been a massive brain drain and movement of peoples to the UK?

Dont they want and need migrants there to help with their economy like we keep being told we need them here?

You would have thought countries like Poland, Romania etc would be begging to take in these poor people?

wow what a statement from Hungary, how specific?! dread to think of implications from that

I think Dawn is using a UKIP policy there

Ukip has pledged to bring back into use up to 300,000 empty homes and protect greenbelt land by giving incentives to developers to build on brownfield sites

As far as the actual refugees feeling ISIS are concerned yes we should as a world help them, there should be UN convention for all the world to help them all. I wish we could wipe ISIS off the map I loathe them, I fear for all the poor women taken as sex slaves. I wish the world would get together and send in crack teams to free them all - wipe ISIS out.

As far as the economic migrants are concerned I would be more cautious and I fdo think its important to make sure people who want to live in the UK share its aspirations in all areas of social life.

I have traveled quite widely and to different cultures and think of course many cultures have lots of teach us in the UK. For example We don't treat our elderly well at all, I have seen far poorer nations treat children far better. But we seem to be ahead in treating - or trying to treat disabled people as equals, homosexuals, and of course women. I have without getting into specifics, seen evidence myself of peoples from some nations, not treating the people who live on my street who have disablitlies well at all, and have experienced sexism.

On one occasion I had to call the police and been told they had had experience of ism from this * but that we live in UK and they must be told.

There are a few living schemes where I am and never seen issues but certain peoples standing out at night have taken the piss.

I wouldn't even necessarily blame them they have not got the same education, influences that its taken years to get too in our country.

Come and live here but I think taking in very large numbers of peoples - they must share are basic values.

I'm sorry I have no idea what you mean? I wouldn't use a UKIP policy under any circumstances.

But Hungary are in the EU, and the EU has laws against racism. Hungary must obviously been aware, when they became a member of the EU, that they had to adopt the EU stance against racism.

How can the PM stand there and say,"Well we don't like Muslims, and we don't want loads of them here?" Surely that is grounds for chucking them out of the EU? They can't just cherry pick which bits they want to adhere to.

There are 14.5 million Kurds in Turkey. Are mumsnetters really saying tha Turkey is such a dangerous place for kurds the UK should take all 14m of them here? You could use the same argument against any country with more discrimination by shia against sunni or vice versa or the untouchables in India damned by their caste.

Thanks for the link about Turkey but those people are in Turkey and are not being bombed there. The family with the boys who died applied to Canada to settle there officially following the rules as a relative is there and they were refused so they decided to act illegally and jeopardise the lives of the famliy and as a result the boys and their mother died.

Janet I guess because it was early when you posted you weren't quite with it. Nobody has suggested we take 14 million people. Nobody.
It must be nice to live in a world where you are so entrenched in your views that you are completely inured to what is happening in the world around you, that you are able to judge so freely on the reasons why a father would risk the lives of a family. A father so devastated he is going back to a war torn country because he has nothing left.

I know they haven't. But that't the key problem. Most of the 1.2bn people in Africa probably would like to come to the UK.

The 14m is the piont about kurds. People say every Syrian in Turkey who is Kurdish is so at risk of discrimination that they are at risk there. My point back is 14.5m kurds live in Turkey. Okay all the turks may not love them but they are not at risk of being killed.

If I put a 3 and 5 year old on a boat off the English coast I'd be arrested and rightly so. This father chose in effect to kill his children. We cannot get away from that. theyw ere well fed cared for children perfectly safe in Turkey. We need to move back to personal responsibility rather than this constant blaming of others.

Isis are advancing into areas previously controlled by Turkey and the US, Janet.
I know there is no reasoning with you, but Turkey is not entirely safe, and Syrians are not treated well in Turkey. They had family in Canada. The father did not choose to kill his family.