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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To keep shouting, they are refugees! !!

290 replies

ginmakesitallok · 02/09/2015 21:35

And not migrants!!!!

The people who are dying on Europe's shores are not migrants! They are not coming to Europe for jobs, for benefits, because they think it will be an easy life. They are escaping war, ISIS, starvation, rape, death. They just want to live and give their children an opportunity to live.

Stop calling them migrants, as if they just fancy living somewhere else. Brits rearing abroad are migrants. Other eu residents coming here are migrants. The dead baby on a beach in Greece was a refugee.

OP posts:
SoThisIsSummer · 05/09/2015 10:11

figures and meaningless crap you like to justify why the UK should not shoulder its share of responsibility for the crisis

Wow, OK well we are giving more aid than the other EU countries put together...hardly shirking Hmm

ElkeDagMeisje · 05/09/2015 11:46

I'd be very surprised if some of the more vehement internet posters actually do more than contribute a small amount to a relevant charity and make themselves feel an awful lot better by berating other people. I can't, for example, believe that many of them will actually host a refugee in their own home, or if they did so, that it would last longer than two weeks.

LivingZuid The Netherlands is an extremely tolerant country, however its a trait of the Dutch character to say what you think but to not engage directly in argument. Its also a very crowded country. I don't think it reflects badly on the Dutch that some of them occasionally express concern about high immigration levels here, particularly when you are a Dutch woman who regularly has to put up with abuse from those from cultures where its not normal for women to be out and about in public. I was abused last night while I was using the cash machine and invited to have sex with two young men who were hanging around it who were clearly not Dutch but had enough grasp of the language to tell me that they could tell me that I was sexually aroused by them because my nipples were hard. I see this morning that the geldautomaat is boarded up because it has been raided again. That's one of the realities of accepting large levels of immigration. Hopefully it will work its way out in time, but Dutch also like to join clubs and societies and my clubs are desperate to encourage Muslim minorities to join in and have put a lot of effort and resources into trying to do so. But we simply cannot get any to join in with us on a regular basis. Whereas buying powerful cars and racing them on public roads is far more popular, which is completely alien to the way of Dutch life and really quite upsetting for a lot of people. That said most Muslim immigrants are well integrated other than sports and social lives and you can for example walk around somewhere like Overvecht and enjoy the cultural mix in total safety. Although a lot of Dutch don't like it.

There are around 14 million Kurds in Turkey or 17-18% of the population, particularly in the region of Kurdistan in the south east, but there are also around 3 million Kurds in Istanbul. Mixed marriages are relatively common but the Turkish constitution doesn't recognise well the rights of Kurds. There is some fear amongst Turks that the Kurdish minority seek a separate state although this is not necessarily the case. Obviously none of us in the west can speak with personal experience of what it is like to be a Kurdish refugee in Turkey, but that also applies to exaggeration of what it is like to live in a relatively peaceful Kurdish village in Turkey. Since Kurds speak an Indo-European language, I can imagine one day that Turkey, which wants to join the EU, might realise the advantages of this.

JanetBlyton · 05/09/2015 11:50

And we are certainly not having Turkey in the EU until it improves its human rights record. It does not meet the criteria for membership yet.

France has our population but much more land so if anyone should be taking more or doing more it's France, not the UK who pays more to help than other EU states.

Germany needs more people as UK population is over taking Germany so 800 000 fit strong young men from Syria might indeed be what Germany needs. the UK is over crowded and 1 in 8 are born abroad and 600,000 people came into the UK from abroad last year. We already have enough problems caused by huge recent immigration (and I write that as someone who is generally fairly pro immigration if the numbers are not excessive).

evilcherub · 05/09/2015 11:59

So, Hungary and Bulgaria were not good enough for them so now they are off to Austria to try their luck. I expect Germany, the Scandinavian countries and the UK will be next as they have the most generous welfare systems. I also noticed that the majority of these migrants are young men, not families and not women. It's pretty obvious that a large majority (not all) are simply economic migrants. The true asylum seekers would be claiming asylum in Hungary/Greece, not picking which country they fancy.

ElkeDagMeisje · 05/09/2015 12:12

I was in two minds whether to post this link on mumsnet, bearing in mind the likelihood of being attacked by bullies, but it is based on statistics and its a neutral article written by Swedish researchers:

www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape

I simply think, not just in view of my experience last night, that there is a concern for women in particular of increasing Muslim immigration, that should be highlighted before an open doors policy is advocated.

RhodaBull · 05/09/2015 13:37

Quite, ElkeDagmeisje.

In Italy, the crime of rape which has historically been low compared with other crimes, has increased hugely. Go to any Italian city/town now and there are large groups of immigrant men gathered - they make comments and leer as you pass. It is not only unpleasant but unsettling as well. Milan central station has to have a huge police presence to try to keep people who are not genuinely travelling off the trains and Italian women I know are now afraid to travel by train off peak.

PuttingouthefirewithGasoline · 05/09/2015 14:25

n an astounding number of cases, the Swedish courts have demonstrated sympathy for the rapists, and have acquitted suspects who have claimed that the girl wanted to have sex with six, seven or eight men.

Oh yes we have heard this ^ before haven't we. Angry

women have zilch rights in many Muslim countries we have no idea the levels of rape and violence being perpetrated against women in these places. Because they have no rights, they get raped they get blamed.

Angry
livingzuid · 05/09/2015 14:37

increasing Muslim immigration

Yes, because rape is predominantly the province of immigrant Muslim men Confused

increasing Muslim immigration It would take me two guesses from your username as to where you originate from. I live in a part of the Netherlands with a very high ethnic, predominantly Muslim population. The only problems I have ever experienced have come from white men. So you're talking rubbish.

I was abused last night while I was using the cash machine and invited to have sex with two young men who were hanging around it who were clearly not Dutch but had enough grasp of the language to tell me that they could tell me that I was sexually aroused by them because my nipples were hard.

News flash. That happens in Dutch and English as well. So what's your point?

But if we disagree with you or pick apart the glaring holes in your argument, of course, we become bullies.

I worked in the voluntary sector for sixteen years before I fell pregnant and did work for a number of refugee organisations both in the Netherlands and the UK, so I am well aware of what I am talking about.

Go to any Italian city/town now and there are large groups of immigrant men gathered - they make comments and leer as you pass

Really?????? Any Friday Saturday night in any city or town centre in the UK will give you exactly the same result, at any station, train or pub. Filled with naice, white men. Actually, not even on a Saturday night and there doesn't even have to be alcohol or drugs involved. News flash - misogyny exists well beyond the incredibly limited scope you're describing.

Wow, OK well we are giving more aid than the other EU countries put together...hardly shirking

Show me where I referenced financial aid. I am talking about helping the people who are stuck in limbo where the daily mail readers would happily leave them. God these attitudes make me sick.

Stripeysocksarecool · 05/09/2015 15:26

However abhorrent some posters find it, the fact is that the majority of people in the UK want immigration to be substantially reduced.

This website has some interesting information about why people feel that way.

www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/uk-public-opinion-toward-immigration-overall-attitudes-and-level-concern

ExitPursuedByABear · 05/09/2015 15:49

I don't think I have ever seen quite so much virtue signalling contained in one thread

ElkeDagMeisje · 05/09/2015 16:03

livingzuid increasing Muslim immigration It would take me two guesses from your username as to where you originate from. I live in a part of the Netherlands with a very high ethnic, predominantly Muslim population. The only problems I have ever experienced have come from white men. So you're talking rubbish.

Congratulations on your guessing as "where I originate from". What a nice way to put it. I don't believe you. I think you are trying to make yourself sound like an expert on the Dutch or something, but I don't think you are Dutch.

Because this is nothing that most people here don't talk about. Not because we are racist, but because its an issue.

The only problems I have ever experienced have come from white men. So you're talking rubbish.

That's absolutely not true. Particularly if you are a female student, trying to go about your business in a Dutch city centre, you will be harassed, hissed at (whats with the hissing? are you meant to hiss back or something?), followed and so on. If you make the mistake of making eye contact or engaging with the man who is staring, whistling, hissing or muttering to you, you will never get rid of him. They will literally follow you along the street, asking you to come with them. So you don't engage. You keep your eyes down, you avoid eye contact, you avoid standing still or reading a map or sitting in a partly empty train carriage or going to a partly empty train spoor. Given that most Dutch female students look like a blond dreamwoman to many men who aren't Dutch themselves, its something that its impossible to conceive if you are a middle aged expat living in a suburb of Eindhoven or Venlo or Helmond or wherever. You have absolutely no idea what you are trying to talk about.

I live in a part of the Netherlands with a very high ethnic, predominantly Muslim population.

Every city and large town and many villages in The Netherlands have a large ethnic, predominately Muslim population.

But if we disagree with you or pick apart the glaring holes in your argument, of course, we become bullies.

I'm not actually making an argument. I'm pro-immigration. If I was to "make an argument" rather than raising issues, which is what I am doing, it is that simply vastly increasing immigration without looking at ways of increasing integration commensurately is likely to cause problems for that half of the population which is predominately sidelined by the prevailing culture and religion of the countries those immigrants mainly originate from.

I worked in the voluntary sector for sixteen years before I fell pregnant and did work for a number of refugee organisations both in the Netherlands and the UK, so I am well aware of what I am talking about.

If your main experience is within refugee organisations, probably in the Randstad, then I hardly think you are qualified as some expert to speak on Dutch society, and how Dutch women feel about being harassed (and worse) in the streets. Its very rare for white Dutch men to do it, much rarer than for British men in the UK.

I'm sure you'll aggressively correct me in some way or other, but that's par for the course for mumsnet. The Netherlands was even more tolerant perhaps twenty years ago but in recent years its become slightly less so. I think failing to realise that there are sound reasons for this is dishonest.

I think immigration is great, and I look forward to those who will inherit our society one or two hundred years from now, when the descendants of those who had no choice but to leave their country of birth are more integrated into western societies and for whom concerns such as the above seem a bit of a old fashioned irrelevant thing.

CrumbledFeta · 05/09/2015 17:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Londonmsi · 05/09/2015 17:11

Yep. Germany has had a stable population for many years. The UK's is rising far more quickly and concetrated in a more densely populated area. In addition, Germany has built sufficient houses and infrastructure ie transport, to be in a position to cope. Uk govts of 30 years have neglected housing and infrastructure to make some wealthy at the expense of the poor.

It's not hard to see why there is resistance from the poor, who will suffer far more from strained services than the middle classes. they're not all sun reading idiots, but not keen on seeing a poor quality of life decline further. And no, not all blame migrants / refugees for all ills., but do realise it comes in addition to many other govt failures that they have to bear the brunt of.

Londonmsi · 05/09/2015 17:22

ElkeDagMeisje - your statements are supported by Dutch women I know. Of course misogyny and public harassment can happen anywhere, and do, but it's at far higher level in some areas with high levels of immigration.

I'm in London, and it's similar here with the leering, comments and abuse in areas like Peckham and Woolwich, though predominantly from Christians from West Africa. Same cultural issue though of women being second class citizens. Pretty extreme, and open, homophobia too. Totally different scale of it than most towns in the UK with lower immigration from cultures where some people are thought of as second class citizens if not a straight male.

Dawndonnaagain · 06/09/2015 08:55

The Gatestone is a hardline, right wing, neoconservative think tank. It is not neutral.

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