In finding it hard to believe people let their young kids take up seats on trains when adults are standing

[gatorgolf]

Never get the train anymore, first time today in about 10 yrs got train to take DS to London. Train home was really really busy people standing in all the aisles as well as the doorways. We sat DS who is 5 on our knee as I thought that was the done thing when train busy. Family near us had two kids, one about the same age as DS, one slightly older maybe 6 or 7, kids had a seat each for the entire journey. I know its not comfortable to have kids on your knee for long time but its more comfortable than having to stand, there was 4 adults in there party so they could have taken the knee sitting in turns or even made the kids squeeze onto one seat to free one up.

I disagree bigmouth - when you purchase a ticket you enter an agreement with the train operator.

My need to travel may well be less than someone else... but if they have not purchased a ticket, then my 'right' to travel on the train is greater.

I think the train operators are over the moon to have passengers bickering like this... stops anyone pointing the finger where it ought to be pointed..

Seriously, if you bought a car and then went to pick it up and the dealer said 'Oh, yeah.... but this guy NEEDS a car more than you, so I gave it to him'... What would you say???

or you booked flights and the travel agent said 'Oh, but this family NEED this holiday more than you do?'

Or even a supermarket for that matter...

The train companies are selling too many tickets and not providing the service they are being paid to provide.

You are paying for transport from a to b not your seat.

Agreed honking but if you buy a first class ticket, that carriage shouldn't be declassified because of an overcrowded train.

And some trains (just look at the comments on twitter today about cancelled trains and people simply not being able to get on) are just oversold.

there should only be enough tickets sold per train as can physically be accommodated on the train and cancelled trains should be replaced... not ust allow other trains to pick up excess passengers.

Seeing as I frequently travel on empty trains and buses I would say the capacity problem is due to everyone trying to travel at the same time and tbh problem can only be solved by rationalizing the way we work and how we organise the daily commute. Not just down to the train operators but they are guilty of running cattle truck services in and out of London, where people pay thousands per year, just for the privilege of standing all the way with other grumpy commuters getting too close. That has nothing to do with whether an able bodied adult should expect a small child to stand for them. Though it may explain the grumpiness being exhibited.

As far as entering an agreement regarding need to travel I am not sure what your point is? I am not saying children have a greater right to travel, but they may have a greater need to sit down for the duration, whereas an adult may stand til a seat becomes available. That has nothing to do with buying cars and it is a very weak counter arguement. A ticket to travel on a certain train with an attached seat booking entitles you to a particular seat on a particular train, but most tickets will entitle you to travel on a train route and that comes with no guarantee of a seat. The contract made when buying a car is utterly different.

I can tell you have never studied how to run a public transport service. If people want to commute to work a train operator running that route sells them a ticket allowing them to travel on any train on that route called a season ticket it is valid for a period of time on any train run by that operator, it is cheaper for the commuter as it will work out as less than the cost of buying individual tickets, and it gives an income in advance for the train operators and an indication of the capacity needed at peak times for the operator. What it doesn't do is indicate which trains they will travel on, as flexibility is part of what the season ticket holder is paying for. So if they opt to catch a crowded train in order to get to work in time that is the individual ticket holders choice, there is no way a train operator on a busy route could run a service of entirely pre-booked trains. The capacity of a network is determined by the size of the train / length of platforms and the number of tracks they can use and what other services use the same tracks, not the number of train tickets bought!

OK, you got me... I've never studied how to run a public transport system...

But... when you book a plane flight... you book a seat and a particular flight. My DH has travelled for work - weekly - for in excess of 8 years and has always managed to work out when he has to fly in order to get to his destination in time for work.

Why not the same for commuter trains? Same happens on lots of trains - I book Virgin WC, EC, grand central, Eurostar, Amtrak... ALL reservations... Why not on 'some' commuter trains?

I will admit, I don't travel at peak times (or at least I try not to) as travelling with kids isn't fair on anyone - including those traveling to / from work

But, I live in a commuter town.... it must be possible to put on designated services for season ticket holders - who (99% of the time) travel on the same train, same time etc., each day.

A plane requires you to wait be booked onto the flight and all board at the same time, you cannot equate that with a timetabled train service with designated stops. So people usually travel on the same service but they certainly don't always, are you seriously suggesting that if my dh missed his train he would just shrug and say "OH well I shall give work a miss today as I didn't catch the 7.59am" he pays nearly 5k for the privilege of travelling on any morning cattle truck our train operator deigns to provide. Also the operators some times cancel services or run short trains again without prior notice this is very different to operating an airline. Not comparable at all.

Seen last week in a crowded, standing-room only rural train - young mum in the aisle seat with infant on her lap, window seat occupied by her bags etc., luggage racks largely empty and an elderly couple, 70+ at the very least, standing clutching the seat-backs in front of and behind her. Not a thought of offering one of them the "unused" seat!

You are right big, the problem is that we find it difficult to trust others because we have often seen occasions where that trust is abused

We visited a big event in Liverpool recently and took my 84 year old mother with us. She walks with 2 sticks and has a blue badge but driving in to the centre was just not possible so we were advised to use a park and ride for local trains. On our return journey the trains were very crowded and the "disabled seat" already taken by a gentleman who apologised that he could not offer his seat. A couple (I would guess late 50s or early 60s) were sitting with 2 boys (at a guess about 10 and 12) right alongside where she stood yet stayed put and said nothing. A lady in the next set of seats kindly stood and asked Mum to sit down. They were obviously aware of all this and a pointed comment made by the woman who stood yet ignored it

It would be a wonderful world if everybody was as considerate as they should be

butquin

did anyone offer to help her put stuff on racks? hold baggage y while she did so?

were there no other people on the entire bus able bodied enough to offer said couple a seat?

bags should have been moved no question. but she wasn't the only person at fault here

hold baby that should say.

This is what I mean..People fixate on one person. mostly a parent with a child. yet entire buses of people fail to shift their arses

Bigmouth, thank you. It is reassuring to hear those views from someone who actually works in the industry. As a long term rail commuter into London (and rail industry worker), I learned many moons ago that my £4k season ticket only buys me the right to stand wedged awkwardly up against someone else's armpit! I think this sense of righteousness and "ownership" of a seat, based on having paid for it, feels very alien to the public service model of public transport.

Iam it's a sheer capacity issue. There isn't the track capacity to run anywhere like. enough trains to give everyone a seat between 6-9am. They could deal with it, arguably, by ramping up prices so only the richest few % can afford it, and then everyone who could still afford to get to work could book a seat. The rest of us would be buggered though. Thankfully trains' commuter fares are regulated so that more of us can afford them.

I've myself sweated over simulation software for days, trying to figure out how to cram an extra train onto the timetable. It is really hard to do. The existing timetable is pretty much optimised to run as much rolling stock as possible.

I'd just like to expand on Giles' point about people focussing in on the person with kids. Whether or not you feel kids should move and stand or not, there does seem to be a national pastime to zone in on mothers with children. Not parents - not fathers - if a father is on a train with children its like "ooh you babysitting mate, good for you" or "awww look at the lovely bloke taking his kids out for the day, what a great dad" and if its a mother it seems to be "she should" "she should" "she should" etc. A woman's place is in the wrong.

mollie you can say it as many times as you like but old age isn't a disability.

What is selfish is that you are making an assumption that because someone is older they are less able. That is not always the case. If I see an elderly person struggling then I always help them and I would get up and offer them a seat. But if they were to appear to be holding on with no issues then I aint budging. I don't move for children either.

I get terribly travel sick and I have had to get off the bus a few times to vomit. This does not make me disabled but it is not enjoyable or comfortable for me to stand for long periods so just as I would not expect someone to offer me their seat, I wont offer mine unless I can clearly see that a person is having a hard time standing.

Nice rum tum - I have no problem offering a seat to someone of retirement age and being refused, rather than for waiting for visible signs of distress

But no one here has said they allow their children to take up numerous seats

those who are unable to place children on their Laps have given valid reasons for that or like me have said they prefer to stand themselves whilst child remains on the seat.

everyone else however has refused to see anyone else's need greater than their own based on the mere fact they are over 18

And one person even said that anyone with more than one child shouldn't even get the bus or train

This thread is a great example of how most MN threads can go.

The whole 'yawn' thing is rude. Should all new/'have another life other than MN' members trawl through the archives to make sure what they are listed about hasn't been discussed/debated before?

Anyway, to the OP. Personally a short journey I would have DD2 on my knee (DD1 too big) but longer I would let them keep their seat. And I would poke people with a sharp stick if they looked at them me/pointedly.

Misplaced / [dammit]

The thing that annoys me the most is that people consider themselves more entitles to a seat whilst simultaneously watching and judging others who dint give up theirs.

maybe if those who could stand did and stopped making the parent the scapegoat for everyone else's rudeness and selfishness things would he alot nicer fir everyone.

And if people could just be more helpful in general. carry bags or hold babies lead toddlers to an empty seat safely rather than letting them stumble up the steps

we could move bags, we could help lift buggies out the rack.

anything but just sitting and watching people of all ages struggle then judging when the in the hurry to not hold up or piss anyone else off they commit some other faux pas that has people talking.

big - Yes, I am probably oversimplifying - but if it's possible with planes (and it is!) then yes, it ought to be possible with trains. If your DH HAD to catch the 7:59 or miss his day at work (which is exactly what would happen to my DH if he missed his plane) then he'd make sure he made it.

Flomple - if it is a put capacity issue, why not make designated commuter trains with very little seating?

Guys - I know - I'm probably being WAY over simplistic but I just believe there IS a better way. I know for a fact, I couldn't commute to London like that (you'll be shocked to know I don't work...I stay home with my autistic child... so excuse me if I'm hopelessly out of touch with reality)

I just feel there should be SOME sort of a middle ground, especially for those who generally DO take the train each day.

Like complimentary parking (would certainly work in the town I'm in) and designated seating for season ticket hoders.

Ok, nothing to do with the OP (sorry!)