In finding it hard to believe people let their young kids take up seats on trains when adults are standing

[gatorgolf]

Never get the train anymore, first time today in about 10 yrs got train to take DS to London. Train home was really really busy people standing in all the aisles as well as the doorways. We sat DS who is 5 on our knee as I thought that was the done thing when train busy. Family near us had two kids, one about the same age as DS, one slightly older maybe 6 or 7, kids had a seat each for the entire journey. I know its not comfortable to have kids on your knee for long time but its more comfortable than having to stand, there was 4 adults in there party so they could have taken the knee sitting in turns or even made the kids squeeze onto one seat to free one up.

If they are under the age where they have to pay for a ticket, they are not entitled to a seat. Which bit of this are you having trouble grasping, exactly?

Of course if the parent gives them their seat it all evens out - one ticket bought, one bum on seat - but if you and your child (you hypothetical, not you specifically) are taking up a seat each and a paying adult gets on, one of you needs to give your seat up. End of. They are the rules. If you don't agree with those rules, why do you not drive instead of going by public transport?

And the people who buy a seat for their up to 5yr old so they would be guarenteed a seat? Not everybody takes advantage of 5s being free.

I was always told to stand up for an adult when I was a child - and I did. I always make my DS stand up - what is a pain is when adults say 'no no - it's alright you sit down' to my DS - I once got into a bit of an light hearted argument and had to explain that I was trying to teach my DS manners . But I am pleased that now he is a teenager he always stands up for adults without prompting. Obviously I wouldn't expect very young children, or those with special needs, to have to stand - but otherwise, yes, I do think children should stand up for adults. And I am old fashioned enough to think that gentlemen should stand up for ladies. .

greenwich - I buy and reserve a seat for my toddler, should I still give up the seat?

Checking transport for London regulations:

"7.2.3 Under 11 year olds
On Buses
You can travel free at all times.
On the Tube
Under 5 years old. A person under 5 years old can travel free at all times when with a person
aged 16 years or older who holds a valid ticket or is using pay as you go."

No mention of laps.

It's possible that for trains a ticket would be required for a child to be entitled to a booked seat, in which case I'd gladly pay.

If they are under the age where they have to pay for a ticket, they are not entitled to a seat.

Is that your opinion? Or actual conditions of travel?
What about pensioners over the age where they have to pay for a seat, at least in buses?

The last short trip I made with ds (10) I actually suggested that he sat on my lap (it was not possible to stand), but the nice people on the opposite bench just moved a bit to the side and offered him some space to sit. Generous and kind small town folk.

Lweji - both. I think you'll find it's part of the conditions of travel for bus companies etc, and it's also my personal opinion.

Lewji, this is from First Bus's conditions of travel (simply the first bus company I thought of, not my local one)

CHILD AND STUDENT FARES

4.32 Up to two children under five years old will be carried free of charge providing that they do not occupy a seat required by an adult passenger and are accompanied by a fare-paying Customer who is responsible for them.

The very clear implication is that if your child is under five and you have not bought them a ticket, they must NOT occupy a seat required by an adult, and I agree. You should put them on your lap. (Bit of a grey area if you give them your seat, too, it would seem.)

Of course if they've paid a fare, fine.

There are plenty of trains and buses where you do not pay for a seat but a right to use the mode of transportation. I'm not risking my small child falling over so a perfectly healthy, able-bodied adult can park their arse.

Nobody's asking you to. Put it on your lap. What exactly is so difficult about that? If they're over the age of being able to sit on a lap, buy them a ticket.

aaah but a ticket is never enough on MN cos they pay half fare they are still expected to vacate.

I'm. Sure one person even used the argument that a child's bones heal quicker on one of these threads

I pay one full and one half fare at least the 4 yr old is gonna get a seat out if that even if me and dd2 have to stand to keep her safer

dd1

Op here, not been on all day so only just read through posts. I guess most people think I am bu, first thing to note is that I was only referring to kids on knees or squeezing onto one seat not making them stand which is what a lot of people have assumed but op didn't say that at all. The journey in question that the op refers to was about an hour and a half so not a quick commute but not a really long journey either. Maybe it's the way I was brought up but even after reading comments in the same situation again I would still put DS on my knee to free a seat, it makes things more uncomfortable to me but not as bad as standing so why would I let other people stand when I can give one a seat and have a little discomfort but still a seat.

Re the half fare on buses and standing thing, I remember in the 80s the driver calling out when the bus was busy that no half fares should be in seats, it was just the norm at the time.

Don't even get me started on soft play!! I've been in soft play places with no seats spare and asked if seats were free and told no they belonged to their children, who then proceeded to come back once every half hour for about 19 seconds to have a sip of drink

If there's a free space they can sit. If there is no free space and they can't stand then they sit in the parent's seat or on the parent's lap. If there is an adult requiring a seat and they can stand so that a full fare paying adult is able to sit, then that is what should happen.

National Rail:
*

1. Children

Up to two children under five years of age may travel free of charge with a passenger holding a ticket or other authority to travel. However, children under five years of age who are travelling free may only occupy a seat which is not required by a passenger holding a ticket or appropriate authority to travel.*

Arriva buses

Child fares

There is no charge for children under five years of age provided they are accompanied by another passenger who is travelling on a valid basis and do not occupy a seat or seats to the exclusion of an adult passenger.

• See more at: www.arrivabus.co.uk/about-us/conditions-of-carriage

Lots of references to teaching children to be respectful of adults. That's actually never occurred to me - I encourage them to be respectful towards people in general (it's rude to interrupt, etc) but not just because someone is an adult. I don't really want to either as I don't want them to fear that should something happen to them, the view of an involved adult could be given more credence than their own.

If I've paid for their ticket I don't see why they shouldn't sit? When they are below paying age I would make them sit on a lap but not after (unless elderly etc)

If the ticket is paid for/ child too big to sit on your knee then they should have a seat, of course.
It is wrong and unsociable to allow a toddler to occupy a seat when adults are standing.
There should be enough trains for everyone to have a seat.
It's disgusting you have to stand after paying, it should be free.

How would you know if a toddler's train seat has been paid for or not?

Giving up a seat is not teaching respect.
It is teaching children that adults are more important than they are.
Respect is earned, it is not an automatic right.
And if someone was stuck up enough to think they deserve a seat more than my paying child simply because they happened to be born a few years earlier then I wouldn't want to associate with them anyway, so I wouldn't care what they thought of me, my son and our "lack of respect"

I don't give a fuck if my children aren't important to anyone else, they are to me If an elderly, pregnant or disabled person needed a seat we would of course give them one. If not, jog on, kids are more vulnerable than adults and deserve that to be respected.

But even if the 4 year old is not entitled to take a seat if they don't pay a fare if there are paying adults, it's up to the parent to take that seat or stand while the child sits (often my choice) or if a considerate adult chooses to give the 4 year old their seat, no other adult should reclaim that seat to themselves.
And, as pointed out, it's not difficult to grasp that the alternative to wanting my child to have a seat is not only the above, but also to pay for their ticket (as I also mentioned), not simply or only to drive myself.