In finding it hard to believe people let their young kids take up seats on trains when adults are standing

[gatorgolf]

Never get the train anymore, first time today in about 10 yrs got train to take DS to London. Train home was really really busy people standing in all the aisles as well as the doorways. We sat DS who is 5 on our knee as I thought that was the done thing when train busy. Family near us had two kids, one about the same age as DS, one slightly older maybe 6 or 7, kids had a seat each for the entire journey. I know its not comfortable to have kids on your knee for long time but its more comfortable than having to stand, there was 4 adults in there party so they could have taken the knee sitting in turns or even made the kids squeeze onto one seat to free one up.

[PandasRock]

I've spent half of today on trains and buses. I have 3 dc. Eldest is nearly as big as me, and looks (to the casual observer) as though she could give up her seat. She can't. She has severe ASD, hyper mobility and be
I've me, you really wouldn't want to be stood next to her.

My middle one also has ASD, and hypermobility. She's 8, and cannot stand on a bus/tube/train - shed fall over. My youngest is 3 and (so far) NT. He sits on a seat, because I can't have him on my lap - I'm usually dealing with dd1's various behaviours/restraining her. He would not be safe on my lap, whether his seat has been paid for or not.

We often also occupy the disabled/priority seats, and get untold looks and stares because we do so. Because we don't (mostly) look as though we need to be there. Until of course, dd1 has a meltdown, or dd2 cannot cope with all the sensory stuff. Although I expect then people just think I have children who are unruly as well as selfish

[whattodohatethis]

So single parents with more than one small child are no longer allowed to take public transport? Now I've heard it all

Why not just lock them all up in their houses and refuse to let them leave

[Lweji]

I hope that anyone with young dc sprawled out taking up a few seats

That's rarely children. It's mostly men with legs spread out, or people with bags on seats who look annoyed when asked to remove them.
I once had to ask someone to remove their McDs from the seat.

[Flomple]

Iam, what so people could reserve a standing spot on the same train every day? What would be the point of that? At least one train company has tried seatless carriages actually, but last I heard (years ago) was they were unpopular. However modern trains do have more standing room and less seating area than older stock. Train companies have and do offer incentives to entice commuters away from the busiest trains, eg cheaper tickets valid on only slower trains or only "shoulder peak" eg before 7am or after 9.00. It's not that no one has thought about this, believe me. Train companies are gagging to find ways to increase capacity, it would increase their revenues!

I'm not asking you to understand all the minutiae of commuting but can you get the difference in order of magnitude between the number of people who commute daily by aeroplane, and the number who commute within London, population 9 million, plus further millions commuting in daily from half the towns in the South East, all wanting to arrive between 7am and 9.30am?

Sorry, continuing to be spectacularly off topic.

[Iamatotalandutteridiot]

OK, then the busiest trains (between 7-9) should be reserved seating.

Flomple - I KNOW I'm not taking into account people's change in schedules etc., but there has to be a better way.

There isn't another example I can think of where you get to just 'turn up' - if I need to book my child into a school club, I have to do so in advance. If I want to book a ticket or arrange a meeting, I have to do so in advance.

What's so difficult about deciding what train you are going to get?

(Appreciate I might be living in some alternative dream world!)

[bigmouthstrikesagain]

Not just commuters on our "commuter" train route 2 major airports and London st Pancras in the middle means it is a service for people connecting with flights, Eurostar services and inter city train services there is no way that the operator could run booked seat only commuter trains... that way madness and loss of franchise lies! The future is in flexible working, working from home and staggering working hours son that the rush hour is a thing of the past...

[bigmouthstrikesagain]

The point is that the local train is a frequent service, it turns up (in theory) according to timetable and with a frequency that means if you miss one you only have to wait 5-10-15mins to catch the next, allowing for busy times. It would not be sensible to introduce booking on local bus network or the tube either. They are not designed for that purpose. They are turn up and go. When I go on the 6 hour journey to visit my family in Wales (2 OR 3) times a year, I book in advance and I know what services I will catch to make my connections but I can only book the seats on the intercity part of the journey, for the local trains and tubes I cannot and like everyone else on those services I turn up in time and get a seat if one is available.

I have paid for a journey not a seat otherwise maybe they would take all the seats off all the services and hand you a fold up chair at the beginning of your travels which you could then use on each train you caught!

[Flomple]

So what evening train should I book then? Say I finish officially at 5.30 but in reality that's anytime between 5.30 and 9pm, and I have a walk plus a tube ride or two between the office and the station. If I work til 9pm, I get a later start the next morning, and on a light week I get to leave early on a Friday. What ifI had to leave early for a dentist's appointment or I'm working at a client's office for a few days?

It would be as unworkable to limit each commuter to a single train as it would be to limit each car commuter to a one minute slot on the motorway.

[Iamatotalandutteridiot]

I think I've been out of civility for too long!

My Dh leaves VV early each morning and comes home VV late at night. It doesn't matter if he's had a stupidly busy day (n which case he will work through the night from home) or quite an easy day.

Times very rarely change.

And, I don't work... so I'm going to bow to your better judgement on this. Because I don't think I know what I'm talking about :-) xx

[Flomple]

Believe me, doing it your way and NOT commuting cattle class is the vastly more civilised option Iam!

[Twowrongsdontmakearight]

Pansasrock. Genuine question. What do you do on busy trains/buses when your DC can't sit down? Having had a rare few weeks commute recently I found that letting a full train go and waiting for the next was pointless as the next few were just as packed!

[mom2twoteens]

I'm with you gator, I think it's awful that people allow their children to take up seats on a train when adults are standing. That's how I was brought up.

I think people are turning their children in to precocious little, demanding wotsits.
This is why so many children, teenagers and now adults think their needs and rights are more important than anyone elses.

As a group we used to be more considerate and selfless.

[RumTumTuggeress]

bigmouth i'm not bothered if someone has a problem with me not moving. I am a helpful generous person in a lot of ways. I don't have to offer my seat to prove a point.

I don't have children yet but when my baby is born I will follow the rules on transport as everyone else does. My oh is a bus driver and he told me that pregnant women are not entitled to a seat. No one is under any obligation to move for them. That's fine with me, if I don't like it then I don't have to get on the bus at the end of the day.

[ArendelleQueen]

As a disabled person who'd love to be able to stand on public transport, I do find it distasteful that so many healthy, able bodied adults are arguing for their right to sit, purely because they are over 18. I would never allow my child to remain seated to the detriment of anyone else. However, when small and unsteady, they are vulnerable to injury, more so than a stable adult.

[PandasRock]

twowrongs I can't travel in stupid packed times in my own with dc. I would be able to get them all through the station to the train safely to start with, let alone keep them all safe on the train.

If travel is essential, dd1 has a wheelchair/buggy we can use - either dd1 goes in there (in wheelchair space) and I hold Ds and dd2 stands as best she can, or dd2 and Ds go in the buggy, and I stand holding dd1 up/keeping her safe. But it's not really viable.

Usually we would plan around packed commuter times/ not go at weekends because it is not possible with 2xASD and a toddler, whether seats are available or not. It's one of the many constraints on is living anything approaching a 'normal' life.

[bigmouthstrikesagain]

Rum tum the thing is so many of the small things that make the world a nicer place are not covered by regulations and terms and conditions but they are important. The small pleasantries that oil the wheels of conversation and human interaction. There is no law saying that I have to teach my children manners and consideration or indeed to stand for a more vulnerable person but that they are being taught that will I hope make them considerate and empathetic adults that understand not just the letter of the 'law' but how it should be best interpreted and I know who I would rather travel with.

[Lweji]

My oh is a bus driver and he told me that pregnant women are not entitled to a seat.

And are you happy with that? Do you agree?
Don't you think pregnant women should campaign for a right to sit?
I think it's telling that you haven't been pregnant yet. Your views may well change.

The UK is really not very child or pregnancy friendly. Where I live now not only seats are for disabled and pregnant women and people with small children, but pregnant women get priority for many places where you have to queue. As do the elderly. I'm quite happy with that. Even though I probably won't get pregnant again.

IMO the blind should also get priority seating. It must be hard not to know if there is an available seat or not and people should do their best to offer seats.

But to all those banging on about rules and education, the issue with children and public transport is one of safety, mostly.
You wouldn't get a child to stand unrestrained in your car (hopefully), so why make them stand and become more vulnerable in public transport?

[RumTumTuggeress]

Leweji I am currently 23 weeks pregnant. And no I do not have an issue with standing just because i'm pregnant. I don't like standing for long periods whether i'm pregnant or not as it makes me feel faint and I have fainted a few times.

I have never had any complaints from anyone and have always been told I am a polite and courteous well-mannered individual. Everyone has different views on what is right and wrong so each to their own. I think that any one disabled should have priority over me because they obviously have issues with standing so I would always get up and help a disabled person. I have depression and just because it isn't a physical illness, it does affect me physically most days so nobody can educate me on that note.

If I see a bus packed then either I wait for the next one where I can see seats free or i'll just stand if i'm going a short distance. No one forces me to use public transport and to hop on a busy bus and if I do then I am paying for that. Of course I am paying for my journey, not my seat but if there is a seat free then i'll sit down and I expect others to respect that. I don't huff and puff at anyone else if I don't get a seat, I should have waited for the next bus if it was that much of an issue to me.

Nobody has ever asked me to move for them. If they did and they explained they have difficulty standing then I would move but I am not going to assume that every pensioner and every young child will be in agony if they have to stand for half an hour. If it was a whole bus of pensioners occupying the seats and more pensioners get on, then by some peoples reasoning. None of them should move because they have priority. So what do the other pensioners do?

And what happens when a mother puts her child on her knee and the child is screaming because she is becoming restless and everyone is looking over thinking. 'God that awful racket'. I'd rather stand in quiet than sit in chaos but that's just me.

[Lweji]

Leweji I am currently 23 weeks pregnant. And no I do not have an issue with standing just because i'm pregnant.

I didn't at that time either. :)

Anyway, at the time I read a story about a 6 month pregnant woman who had been shoved and hit her belly and ended up losing her baby. I made sure my baby was protected from then on. Either by creating lots of space in front of it, or, preferably, by sitting.

[WeMissYouHissedTheLovecats]

I think it stems from a time when kids used to travel free on the understanding that they didn't occupy seats to the exclusion of fare paying passengers. Don't think that applies now, as I think children usually have to have a ticket now.

But if there was pregnant lady or old/disabled/injured person standing, it would be good manners/human to make some adjustments.

[RumTumTuggeress]

That's so sad Leweji There is no excuse for shoving someone and if someone shoved me whilst i'm carrying my child i'd smack their face!

I always wait for people to get on and off transport and I never barge anywhere. I hate people who storm about pushing past others in a hurry. It's ok if it's an accident but a lot of people are well aware of what they are doing.

[Twowrongsdontmakearight]

Panda. That sounds very tricky logistically. I really hope your DD1's buggy stands out rather than be discrete so that people (including me) can see clearly that you'd need a seat. I hope I'd notice anyway.
My expectation that DC stand applies to secondary age DC like my own. Perfectly capable of standing and very fit with young legs!

[greenwichjelly]

The "right to sit" ? Really? Good god no. Snowflakey much? Why on earth should you have the "right" to sit, just because you're choosing to procreate?

WeMiss - kids under 5 do still travel free, as evidenced by all the postings of conditions of carriage on this thread, but they must not occupy a seat if a paying adult requires it, unless their seat is paid for.

[Gileswithachainsaw]

How about we just try the "right to remain safe"

if that means allowing a small child who can't sit on a lap as their mum is holding a baby or already stood then so be it.

If that means being kind instead of stressing about "I'm an adult/rules of carriage" and assuming anyone under 18 is below you again so be it.

Any idiot should be able to see a 3 year old standing is bloody dangerous and if mums already stood up or the granddad has a seat but is holding his walking stick and his shopping then there's not alot else that cab be done is there.

unless your happy to watch kids fall flat on their faces

[Gileswithachainsaw]

And bow about we finally acknowledge that everyone is at fault rather than the one person with two children.

it's 2 seats what about all the other people who could offer help or a seat but don't.