To protest at the words "Jewish" and "Israeli" being used interchangeabley.

[Jewishnotisraeli]

They are not the same thing at all.

Most Jews are not Isreali

Many Isrealis are not Jewish.

20-25% of Israelis, including the Israeli army are Muslim, ( varies year to year)

Some Jews are Arabs. Some Arabs are Jewish.

Some Palestinians on the West bank are Jewish.

There are no known Jewish Palestinians in the Gaza strip as Hamas has succeeded where Hitler failed, in wiping out it's own indigenous Jewish population. This is the ONLY reason why there are no Jews left in this population.

Israel has done terrible things. Hamas has done terrible things.

Please don't classify things done by Israel as done by Jews, a quarter of them are not Jews. please don't classify things done by Hamas as done to Jews, many of their atrocities are inflicted on Muslims.

To say Jews and Israelis are the same is like saying English people and Anglicans are the same, many people are English and Anglican, many people are English but not Anglican, and many Anglicans are not English.

And also, some Palestinians, and some Israelis are Christians.

No, Israeli and Jewish are not the same thing at all. You're quite right OP.

It IS anti-semitic to conflate the two. Jews are entitled to a variety of positions on Israel and its policies as anyone else and there is a wide spectrum of opinions within the Jewish community - and within Israel itself of course.

Of course it's not anti semitic to criticize Israel and its policies. However, there's no doubt that SOME of the criticism, especially much of the hyperbole and exaggeration, is motivated by anti-semitism. In the UK I think it's the deep anti-semitism within parts of the Muslim community (which is particularly sad since there should really be common cause with the Jewish community) and the loony left such as the hatred of Jews seen coming from the likes of George Galloway and Ken Livingstone.

I also think that a tinge of anti-semitism motivates the obsession with Israel and the hypocrisy involved. There are many awful things happening within the Israeli-Palestinian conflict but there are far worse things happening throughout the world which people/communities who are very vocal about the Palestinian cause stay strangely silent about. But as someone who cares deeply about both Israelis and Palestinians for personal reasons I'm OK with this. Hypocritical it may be but hypocrites can still be right and the constant interest in Israel pushes the Israeli government (and maybe Palestinians?) to greater restraint than maybe we'd see otherwise so I can live with that, as long as the criticism itself is fair and correct.

Take for example the holocaust terminology already raised here by another poster. That's anti-semitic in my opinion. The Israelis and Palestinians have been doing horrible things to one another for over a century now but thankfully haven't yet reached the levels of the holocaust. Killing lots of people is not genocide. It may be a war crime and it is certainly unacceptable but it's not genocide. Using the term genocide is anti-semitic hyperbole (or ignorance). And it's counter-productive. It just makes Israelis see the world as them and us and more likely to dismiss any criticism, even if justified.

And just a point regarding zionism and the right of the Jewish people to self determination. It's not just about religion. It wasn't about religion during the holocaust, you couldn't just convert to christianity and all would be OK. The Jews are also a people. And just like, say, the Kurdish movement for a homeland, zionism is the Jewish movement for a homeland and self determination. Zionism itself has plenty of room to live peacefully with the Palestinians. Whether Zionism is necessary in today's world is a question but there's no doubt that if Israel had existed in just ten years previously, there'd be a whole lot more Jews in the world today. Of course, Palestinians also have a right to self-determination and to their own country. It's the fact that both the Palestinians and Israelis have legitimate claims and grievances which has caused this conflict to be so intractable for so long.

And calling someone a 'hasbara troll' for expressing points of view different to your own is bullying and intimidating behavior.

TTWK I said being anti the jewish state (anti-Israel/anti-Zionist) is a anti-Semitic. Not liking the Israeli govt isn't anti-Semitic. Not everybody is a fan of Netanyahu but you can still be a fan of Israel! It's like supporting Britain's right to exist but not supporting the Conservatives. Don't put words into my mouth.

But many Jews are supporters of a secular Israel. They do not support a Jewish State. They do not believe a nation should have a state religion. They are in favour of the American model, where the 1st amendment guarantees a wall of separation between church (or mosque or synagogue) and state.

Jews who hold this view are not self haters, or anti semitic. They just don't happen to have the same view as you.

Also, many non practising Jews or liberal Jews do not feel comfortable in Israel, nor is it a place where they feel at home. Hardly surprising as there are areas in Israel populated by orthodox Jews where is you attempt to drive thru on a Sabbath, your car is stoned. There is also a lot of prejudice against extremely orthodox Jews by liberal Jews, who resent their refusal to do national service along with other grievances against them.

The situation is far from as clear cut as you make out.

TTWK - this wouldn't make the "secular Jews" you are referring to anti-Israel, any more than calling for the disestablishment of the CofE would make someone anti-British. No-one would call them self-hating. The founders of Israel weren't at all religious, and Jewish law does not apply to criminal matters, which is why, eg, abortion and homosexuality are legal.

That's right Sam.

You can be Zionist (ie support the right of the Jewish people to their own country) and support separation of religion from the state.

That's the platform of the political party 'Meretz', for example, which is both zionist and strongly secular.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meretz

Atenco
So yes I hate Zionists and I'm sure Zionists hate me.

So you hate anyone who supports a Jewish homeland (which is the definition of Zionism)? Wow. That's a lot of hatred.

I'm pretty sure most Zionists don't hate you though. Have you done anything to think they do?

OP I agree that being Israeli and being Jewish are not the same thing, obviously.

I find that most people confuse Israeli with Zionist.

However, anyone that uses religious grounds as justification for oppressing people and murdering children is fucking disgusting and I'll reserve my sympathy for the Palestinians. I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm pro human rights.

I also think religion is stupid, but that's neither here nor there.

wine bringing up China is like a child directing their parent's attention to a sibling being naughty when they have been caught doing something bad. Yes, shit is happening all over the world. That doesn't make what's happening to the Palestinians okay, and it certainly doesn't mean that we don't care about Taiwan because we care about what Israel have done ffs.

As for crying 'Hamas! 'Hamas!' When Israel or Zionism is criticised, which came first? IIRC the UN has basically said that Israel acted illegally by firing at schools. Just because Hamas used a school to store weapons, do you think that makes it okay to kill some children?

Sam & Shak,

I don't disagree in principle, but when one talks about being a fan or a critic of a country, anti or pro, any country, we are usually referring to their government, political system, foreign policy, human rights record etc. Not their mountains, lakes, glaciers and volcanoes.

Syria is a beautiful country, but if I said I was a big fan of Syria, I'm sure I'd get some odd looks, because the whole place is a political basket case.

I'm not much of a fan of any middle eastern country, and the fact that Israel may be the best of a bad bunch isn't enough for me to be a supporter. I don't like theocracies in general. I don't like countries that call themselves Jewish, or Islamic. I wince when I'm told the UK is a Christian country. Countries should not have a state religion.

And for the record, the fact that Hamas have been democratically elected is not a defence.

The conservatives were apparently democratically elected but I sure as shit didn't vote for them. They don't represent my views and they don't reflect my beliefs. If another country takes umbrage with the conservatives, do I deserve to be killed because I live in the UK?

TTWK

Agree regarding state and religion.

And also about Israel being the best of a bad bunch in the Middle East. But Israel wants to be (and should be) included among Western liberal democracies and so should be holding itself and compared to others in this group. Thank goodness Israel doesn't have the dire standards of Syria, Lebanon or Egypt.

But where I disagree I DO think people saying 'I don't support Israel' are often not just saying they don't support Israeli government policies. It applies to Israelis themselves (look at Galloway banning Israelis from Bradford!) whereas no-one does that to Syrians, Lebanese or Egyptians. It also often also denies Israel's very right to exist. Last year I walked past a demonstration outside the Israeli consulate. If it had only been about protesting Israeli policies during the war, I'd have joined. But the flags had drawn a map of Palestine with no sign of Israel, including where present-day Israel is. And the slogan shouted was 'Between the river and the sea, Palestine will be free'. Between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea is also Israel, ie Palestine is what will be there instead not as well.

Patapouf

No, of course Hamas being elected in Gaza doesn't mean that every Gazan is a terrorist and should be treated as such.

But there is collective responsibility. Many Israelis don't support the Netanyahu government. But it was democratically elected and they're also going to have the eat the shit that goes along with it.

Why would she persuade him not to join? Hamas is totally mainstream in Gaza and plenty of opportunities to make money through corruption.

The Gazan outpost of Islamic state might be a different story.

How about, "Son, don't become a racist murderer. It won't bring peace and the majority of the people you kill will be innocent civilians?".

And there's high unemployment in all sorts of places, including Greece. But if young Greeks decided to join a violent and radical racist group such as Golden Dawn, they would be unlikely to be referred to as "friends" by certain Labour leadership frontrunners.

I can fully understand the anger and why terrorism would be attractive. And I say that as someone who has lost friends to terrorism.

Much of the anger is justified. Some of it is misplaced with Israel blamed for all Palestinian problems.

Either way, there are more productive ways of advancing the Palestinian cause which don't involve murdering innocent Israeli citizens.

YANBU.

Yes there is high employment in Greece however that particular generation haven't witnessed their homes being balldozed, friends shot at by soilders imprisoned without trial - how you can compare the two is beyond me..

Handsup and Ego - there aren't any Israelis (soldiers or otherwise) in Gaza - the random shootings without trial, honour killings of women, and chucking of political opponents off high buildings are being carried out by Gaza's own govt.

Many Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces in the West Bank but I suspect you know this but don't really care.

..while the same rules doesn't apply to the jewish extremist who arsoned the home of a two year old boy..

Ego - there seems to be some confusion between W Bank and Gaza. Gaza isn't occupied. There is a limited blockade (a lot less strict than the Egyptian version), principally because Hamas spends its time building rockets and tunnels rather than governing properly.

I don't think that life in the W Bank is a bed of roses, but it isn't very pleasant anywhere in the near vicinity. A lot of people in the West Bank do work in Israel. There used to be pretty much free access into Israel, but that didn't end very well.