To protest at the words "Jewish" and "Israeli" being used interchangeabley.

[Jewishnotisraeli]

They are not the same thing at all.

Most Jews are not Isreali

Many Isrealis are not Jewish.

20-25% of Israelis, including the Israeli army are Muslim, ( varies year to year)

Some Jews are Arabs. Some Arabs are Jewish.

Some Palestinians on the West bank are Jewish.

There are no known Jewish Palestinians in the Gaza strip as Hamas has succeeded where Hitler failed, in wiping out it's own indigenous Jewish population. This is the ONLY reason why there are no Jews left in this population.

Israel has done terrible things. Hamas has done terrible things.

Please don't classify things done by Israel as done by Jews, a quarter of them are not Jews. please don't classify things done by Hamas as done to Jews, many of their atrocities are inflicted on Muslims.

To say Jews and Israelis are the same is like saying English people and Anglicans are the same, many people are English and Anglican, many people are English but not Anglican, and many Anglicans are not English.

And also, some Palestinians, and some Israelis are Christians.

Wineisfine, you are entitled to your views, but so are others, including many Jews, who hold a different view. Many people, Jews included, do not believe in religious states, be it an Islamic Republic or a Jewish State. They believe states should be secular, and should serve the interests of all its citizens, and not just the majority. Just as the Muslims in Iran who oppose their government are not anti Islamic, the Jews who criticise Israel are not anti Semitic.

Many Jews believe the best interests of Jews across the word are not best served by Zionism and its aims. You may not agree with them, but to label them self haters or anti Semitic because they disagree with you is disingenuous.

Abhorring 500 children getting their limbs blown off last summer while criticising the Israeli government does not equate to anti Semitism - infant it's getting boring now. wineisfine

infact

TTWK I totally agree. I'm Jewish. I am not Israeli. I am appalled at the deaths in Palestine and the blockades. I am appalled at Hamas. A religious state is never going to work. I have been to Israel once. Never again. It certainly didn't feel like anywhere I could call home or would want to. Zionism feels very uncomfortable to me. Yes there is anti-semitism in the UK but thankfully I have very rarely been on the receiving end. I know plenty of people who wear a star of david, Yarmulkes and other markers of their faith. My family have been grateful to the UK and happy to call it home. The hideous bombings in Palestine have done nothing for Jewish PR over here or anywhere else. The whole situation in Gaza is hideous. No one can live in peace. It's a total mess sadly.

YANBU.
I have a work colleague who constantly uses the word Jew when referring to Israelis, although he does seem to grasp that not all Jews are Israelis. As a team at work we've tried to explain the difference but falls on deaf ears. We're often shocked by his ignorance, he's avvery well educated psychiatrist.

YANBU and being Jewish is not synonymous with being religious. People often misunderstand the cultural associations with being Jewish. It does not mean that you are kosher, go to synagogue every Saturday and cover your head.

I used to be open about my views in real life but received some uncomfortable responses. I have been verbally attacked by a handful of religious Jews but I have also received anti-Semitic abuse for even sharing that I am Jewish, as if I am responsible for the actions of the Israeli government just by being born to a Jewish woman!

In these online debates, I always say that I am a human, first and foremost.

"People who seek to challenge Israel's right to self-defence are challenging the Jewish right to a safe place."

I'm Jewish. I believe that Jews (and everyone, really, but as this statement was about Jews..) have a right to a safe place. This does not mean that I have to condone the actions of the Israeli government. Israel is not a person with thoughts and feelings, Israel is - in basic terms - a piece of land. Yes, this piece of land has religious connotations for religious Jews but as I said above, not every Jew has these religious beliefs.

YANBU OP. Lots of very ignorant people out there unfortunately :(.

The only person on this thread who has equated isreal and jew is winels. It serves a perpose to say anyone who disagrees with isreal is a jew hater including Jews (self hating). That purpose is to shut down honest and open debate which helps to maintain the status quo.
Some classic examples of hasbara trolling.
It's all Egypt fault.
Why don't Palestinians go back to Jordan
They started it
All out naighbours hate us and want to destroy all Jews
We need isreal to be safe and I even send my kids on holiday there.
What about China?
We are nice to gay people
We are democratic gaza is not
The people of gaza voted for hamas.
They started it.

Nobody claims that anyone who dislikes the Israeli govt is an anti-semite. This would include a large proportion of Israelis. But of course there are a number of anti-semites around. In a similar way, not everyone who criticises immigration is a racist, but quite a few of them are.

So how does one tell the difference? It is obviously not a scientific thing. With immigration, one can look at the tone of the discussion, whether immigrants are dehumanised, whether there are suggestions of some sort of conspiracy, ludicrous generalisations and exaggerations, etc etc. Note than someone saying "I'm not a racist" isn't conclusive, and some might draw the opposite conclusion

Similarly, with criticism of Israel one can look for anti-semitic stereotypes, dehumanisation of Jews and Israelis (eg "I hate Zionists") and deliberate hyperbole (eg talk about genocide, when there are more Palestinians than there have ever been). Again, someone saying "I'm not an anti-semite" doesn't really help.

dehumanisation of Jews and Israelis (eg "I hate Zionists")
Actually there are a lot of Christian and Atheist zionists and as can be seen in this very thread a lot of Jews and Israelis who do not support the Israeli government.

Zionism is an ideology that adults adopt, not the same as a race, nationality or religion in that sense. So yes I hate Zionists and I'm sure Zionists hate me.

YANBU

"talk about genocide, when there are more Palestinians than there have ever been"

Not for lack of killing. Palestinians have one of the highest fertility rates in the world.

deliberate hyperbole about genocide when there are more Palestinians then ever

The Gaza infant mortality rate has reported to have risen for the first time in half a century according to the UN. This is as suspected a result of the Israeli blockade.

However for the record OP I don't equate jews = Israel and I can understand your frustration.

Handsup - even if that story is true, and it seems to be based on pretty dodgy evidence, infant mortality it fell continuously during 45 years of Israeli military occupation, while life expectancy shot up. Mortality still lower than, and life expectancy higher than both Jordan and Egypt, which aren't under occupation at all.

And medicines aren't subject to any blockade. Still, why spoil a good story with the facts?

Nobody claims that anyone who dislikes the Israeli govt is an anti-semite.

The Israeli government do, and so did Winesfine on this very thread.

I genuinely don't care if someone is Jewish, Muslim, Christian whatever. We're all people. I would never want any person or group of people to die, what a strange accusation to make against anyone., especially someone who just has a different viewpoint to you.

Clearly Gaza is a mess. Clearly Jewisj children having to have a shelter in a playground is a mess.

I don't know when or how it's going to be solved. The bombing needs to stop on both sides. I don't know anyone who would even understand how someone could be anti-Semitic. I don't notice someone's religion as a difference really. But I don't think Israel is doing everything to achieve peace. I don't think Its always being just.

Hamas is labelled a terrorist group, aren't they? Surely they receive less opprobrium because it goes without saying that they do some pretty shitty things. The Israeli government is not labelled a terrorist group. Presumably that's why their negative actions get greater scrutiny.

It's terrible antisemitsm is still a thing - really bloody terrible and weird but please don't think that the majority of those who criticise Israel's treatment of Gaza do it as a result of antisemitism, I really don't think that is the case at all.

Also I am British, but I was anti the 2003 invasion of Iraq and anti the way migrants in Calais are being treated. I don't equate Israeli with Israeli foreign policy or Palestinan with Hamas even if both are elected representatives.

TTWK - I didn't see where Wineisfine said that anyone criticising the Israeli govt is an anti-semite. Could you point me to it?

Nor is it Israeli govt policy, because if it was, the leader of the opposition (unlike most of the surrounding countries there is an opposition leader who isn't in prison or under sentence of death) would be constantly accused of it.

samG76 medicines aren't subject to an overt blockade, but according to the WHO the blockade has had a severe impact on medical equipment in Gaza.

George Yeats - equipment was probably stolen by Hamas officials. See below from the PA...

www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=745439

Nope, that's not what the WHO found. I suspect you're not really interested though.

I didn't see where Wineisfine said that anyone criticising the Israeli govt is an anti-semite. Could you point me to it?

SamG76, below is what Wineisfine said. To me, that reads as a clear accusation of anti-Semitism against critics of Israel.

Anybody who says 'I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm anti-Zionist' is as pathetic as the people who 'I'm not racist because I have a black friend'. I would love to know why people who constantly criticise Israel aren't more concerned about what China does in Taiwan, the child sex exploitation market in India and the treatment of foreign workers in Dubai. I suppose they were all washing their hair the night those petitions were sent round... Of course people don't care because it doesn't involve Jews so they can't air their lazy anti-Semitism! But Israel is a convenient and socially acceptable way to do so. And it comes from all sections of society, from Muslims with anti-western views to left wing 'right on' types. Anti-semitism sadly lives on and taking an anti-Israel stance is how it's now portrayed.

TTWK I said being anti the jewish state (anti-Israel/anti-Zionist) is a anti-Semitic. Not liking the Israeli govt isn't anti-Semitic. Not everybody is a fan of Netanyahu but you can still be a fan of Israel! It's like supporting Britain's right to exist but not supporting the Conservatives. Don't put words into my mouth.

Israel is the only country in the Middle East where any feminist or anybody who supports democracy could possibly live. Israel has changed history- Jews have gone from being pushed around, chased from country to country to having a homeland and a damn successful one at that. People don't know what to do now Israel is here to protect the vulnerable. As for being a hasbara troll FFs! I, and most of my friends, regularly holiday in Israel and yes we even take our kids! Why is that so unbelievable?! The Palestinians have had many chances for peace but each time they have refused it. Hamas tortured it's own people during operation protective edge and you're saying Israel is the wrong doer?!