AIBU to feel a bit hurt and disappointed at what DP said?

[Justneedtovent01]

DP and I have been together for 2.5 years. We’re pretty serious (or at least I think we are!) He’s amazing, kind, caring, supportive etc etc.

I’ve never been in a rush to marry or have children (I’m not even sure I want children, still very undecided) I’ve always thought in an ‘ideal world’ I’d like to be married by the time I’m 31 and IF I do have children, have a child by the time I’m 33-34. I appreciate though that you cannot put a time on these things and they’ll happen when they happen.

Anyway, I’m 29 now and he’s 31 so we’re not exactly young. Over the past few months, so many friends have got married and engaged and I honestly don’t know why but I’ve become quite consumed by the thought of marriage.

Something in me seems to have changed and although I’m still very undecided about children, I really do think now that I would like to be married, to be someone’s ‘one’ and wife etc.

Anyway, last night another one of our friends announced on FB that they were engaged, we both saw it at the same time as were both scrolling on ipads and he said ‘oh, so and so have just got engaged, that’s nice.’ Anyway, we got talking about it all and I can’t remember how it came about but he turned and said ‘I don’t really believe in marriage, don’t actually want to get married unless I’m going to have children as otherwise I just don’t see the point. I’d only get married to have children.’

Now whilst I see his POV, I felt really hurt. I said that, regardless of children I would want to get married, he kept saying ‘Why, what’s the point?’

I feel today like something has changed. I love him to bits and I know the feeling is mutual but I DO want to get married, I don’t want to be someone’s ‘girlfriend’ forever. I want the man that I’m committed to, to show his commitment and love for me by marrying me. If that’s shallow and vain then so be it.

I discussed it with my friend earlier and she shared the same view as me and she said ‘Where’s the romance? If he ever proposed now, you’d know it’d only be because he wants to get you pregnant, not because you’re the love of his life/ girl of his dreams and he wants to show the world etc.’
I can’t help feeling like she’s right. There’s been numerous times throughout our relationship where although I know he loves me, I’ve never really felt ‘special’ or loved any more than any of his exes for instance. I don’t know, maybe I’m being a bit of a princess. I need to sit him down and have a talk about where this relationship is going.

I know he’s with me and doesn’t have to be, but we find each other attractive and get on well, sex life is good so I guess he’s comfortable and so why not stick with me, but if he doesn’t ever want to marry me just for ME, without the absolute promise of children then I don’t know if that’s enough for me and whether it’s just going to compound the view in my mind that actually, I’m not really all that special to him.

Don’t get me wrong, I realise, traditionally that marriage is entwined with starting a family and that’s been its primary purpose. However, I know plenty of married couples who don’t have children and a lot of those are through choice. They don’t have children but they still love each other enough to want to make that commitment?

AIBU to feel a bit hurt or should I just suck it up and accept that unless I tell him I definitely want to start a family that he’ll probably never propose?

OP, you and DP are each facing deal breakers. I don't think it's helpful to ask 'what if' because that's just speculation and gets you nowhere. It sounds like you have doubts right now - they are real and certain. And also your DP has doubts of his own. The way to face this is head-on, full disclosure, i.e. a frank and open discussion as kindly and honestly as you can be. I can't help thinking you're doing yourself down in letting the situation control you and avoiding being open with your DP. Your relationship is changing anyway, despite the avoidance, because your true feelings are coming through and will eventually have to be faced. Why delay the inevitable? Take courage, open up the discussion and have lots of champagne ready, either to celebrate or to take the edge off the pain. Hopefully the former but if it's the latter, at least you'll know for sure what DP wants isn't what's right for you.

I would say the stakes are high enough to warrant what might be an uncomfortable relationship. Really, it could be a case of nothing to lose at this point? You need to find out if your relationship is going where you want it to go (where both of you want it to go) and if it isn't, better to find out now than years down the line. Sorry if that sounds harsh but you really need to be having a full and frank discussion together.

I think you are trying to convince yourself that dp should want to marry you for you, even if later on you may well decide you want no children and he does by talking about not being able to have.

That's a whole other thing and tbh you could switch it around and say you should stay with dp even if he may not marry you, which is something that upsets you. If he wants kids then he needs someone who wants them too because if there are fertility issues you need that drive to get you through the heartache and stress.

I understand feeling how you do. Dh though of marriage just for kids sake and when we met I wanted to be married first. In the end we went with what happened first, after getting engaged and starting planning. Which is good because so far ive been unable to carry past 12 weeks. We both wanted kids though and the marriage we could agree on. You must agree on both for you hoth to be happy. If either of you were to agree on what you dont want it will cause issues and resentment later.

I hope your talk goes well, maybe you will be able to make things work in the long run but just dont compromise on the big things or expect him too. Better to do now as well, neither of you wants to string the other along with promises of 'maybe'.

My friend tried to compromise on marriage and ended up stringing her dp qlong. She didnt intend too but she was in love, didnt want marriage or kids but wanted him. In the end she lost his friendship and respect just by not talking and being honest so I'd always urge everyone to be about their wants and wishes, saves a lot of sadness and resentment in long run.

Did you say anything op? Like, well I'd like children in a few years and would like to marry first?
Surely that's your first step...

All kinds of people don't want to get married for all kinds of reasons. Some will change their mind as their lives progress, some won't. Same with children. Many people have to also make the decision about whether they love their partner enough to just maintain the status quo or face the realisation that they just want different things from life and split. Something in the tone of your posts makes me wonder though op if you just generally doubt he's really that comitted to you as being his lifelong partner, marriage or no marriage. Perhaps this is tied up in his feelings about wanting children - how can he commit to you if he perceives you're not committed to him? Relationship 'progression' means different things to different people - for him it's children.

Dh and I were together for 7 years before we got married. He was cynical about marriage AND children, having left behind a failed marriage and not really wanting more children because he already had two. He's 10 years older than me and I was increasingly ready to marry and have a child. But I was never in doubt about his feelings for me - I always knew we would be together in old age. One day, seemingly out of nowhere, he proposed (ironically when I was no longer bothered about marriage!) We now have a 4yo ds together (though he's adamant he won't have more children now). We've been together 13 years and are very happy (though I occasionally still badger him for another child).

How sure are you that he's committed to you as 'the one'? How committed are you?

Oh and one word of caution - you most definitely can't plan when you'll have children. It crept up on me in my late 20s and we then struggled to conceive for a further two years as I have pcos (but didn't realise until I couldn't fall pregnant).

If he doesn't have a particularly strong view on marriage the fact he would only get married if children were involved could be more about protecting the children and you financially and all having the same family name or wanting them to grow up in a married environment. Not very romantic but practical. Not a reflection on his love for you.

Maybe because he knows your views on children and doesn't want to commit strongly without knowing you want them too?

When DP and I were first going out (about a year) I sat down with him as he had many quite a few noises about not having children, I said if you don't want children then we need to end our relationship because I do. Not because I didn't love him but because I wanted them so badly we would never have survived. In actual fact his not wanting children was more about the time and not, not ever Not very romantic but practical, unfortunately life isn't always fairytale love will conquer all, because it won't.

Have you given him a chance with this? If you hadn't really talked about it then he wouldn't know how strongly you feel about it. It does sound a little like you are looking for reasons why you shouldn't be together.

I hope he isn't one of these boyfriends who doesn't believe in marriage until their partner turns 36, then dumps them and 2 months later gets engaged to a 25 year old... ;-/

Your friend is an idiot. Why would she say such a thing?

Nothing wrong in wanting to be married. Very nice to see he wants to marry before children but if you are adamant you don't want kids you have to tell him.

MizK - if you want marriage without the stress of a big day then go to a register office or just have very close family and friends in a Church. It doesn't have to be a drama.

OP - having a child you don't really want is a stupid idea. Parenthood is hard even when it is what you want. If you're heart isn't in it then it isn't right to do it.

Okay,

To try & answer people. No, haven’t spoken to him yet, will do at some point this week, just needs to be when neither of us are rushing around.

I don’t really know whether I’m just being stupid and insecure when I say that I don’t really feel special to him. He doesn’t give me any reason to think I’m not, he’s absolutely lovely to me. However, he’s absolutely lovely to everyone else too. He is just a nice guy all round, so nothing majorly telling there.

He wouldn’t deliberately string me along, he’s not like that, he’s very honest and moral. TBH I think he’s just burying his head in the sand a bit.

We haven’t really ever spoke about all this properly, I think we’ve both been bimbling along enjoying the relationship and always thinking that it’s ‘too soon’ to have that sort of discussion, but I guess now, the time has come.

I love him very much, if we were still together and everything was still going swimmingly in the next 6-12 months, I’d like to think that if he proposed, I’d say yes. However, now I know that probably won’t ever happen, I feel a bit dead?

I appreciate totally that I’m not sure on kids so it’s exactly the same thing, I do. I guess I am quite romantic though and believe that, irrespective of children (that don’t even exist yet!) if you really love someone, you should be willing to make a commitment to them. I honestly think if I was to get married, I would probably warm to the idea of children more. I have already said to him, numerous times, there is absolutely no way I’d have children with someone if I wasn’t married to them. I just wouldn’t.

I can’t guarantee that I’ll change my mind about children, I hope I will, but there are no guarantees. I would however like my partner to love me enough to take a chance on me, that’s probably selfish and unreasonable but that’s how I feel. I want my potential LIFE partner to want me more than anything in the world. I appreciate we don’t live in a Mills and Boon world though.

Hmph. All that's wrong here is you want your frilly frock and day in the sun, because so many of your friends are doing it. It's not a race and marriage and couplehood are not compulsory.
An awful lot of people make the mistake of thinking that it's somehow 'time' to be married just because all their friends are doing it, and that the person they are currently with must be the perfect fit for husband/wife slot. Sometimes both partners have the same thought at the same time and subsequently do well enough as a married couple. Problems arise when one partner has really just been enjoying a pleasant-enough relationship and suddenly the other one can't hear anything but wedding bells. If the less-keen partner allows him/herself to be swept along despite being not all that bothered, you are setting up a situation that will end in resentment on both sides, especially as one or both of you is likely to meet someone more compatible in the future.

Hmm, if having children is really important to him, then you can't expect him to marry you on the basis of 'I might change my mind about kids'. That's not a recipe for a happy marriage. You need to know you have the same life goals before you get married or else you're not compatible. It sounds to me like you need to make a decision about kids and that's basically going to be the deciding factor here on your long-term future as a couple.

He may want to be with you for you. There's nothing you say that suggests otherwise.

But he wants children. I guess he doesn't want to marry you and then discover you won't change your mind about children?

He's just gone about communicating that in a clumsy way. I agree you need to talk.

It sounds like you really want a wedding, and he really wants children.

But you're both undecided about how much you want what the other one wants.

You have to have this out seriously and honestly. It's time for you both to put your cards on the table.

YANBU to want a wedding (though wanting the surprise romantic proposal and all that - well, that's a little U, especially now you've decided it's all pretty much ruined on the proposal front) and a marriage.

But he is definitely NBU to know that the prospect of trying to have children is 100% on the cards with the woman he chooses to settle down with.

I think YABU. He wants children, and you don't/are unsure. That's huge.

I wouldn't have married my Dh if he said he definitely didn't want children, even though I wasn't sure I wanted them myself. I wouldn't have wanted that choice taken away from me, by him.

It would have been different if we tried to have children but couldn't for some reason; because we would have started out totally compatible and 100% together and committed in our goal, it would have been life getting in the way of the goal rather than the other person, which hopefully we would have dealt with together.

The resentment must be huge if one of a couple prevents the other having children, I would imagine.

To me I would see the children issue as more important than the marriage issue. So if one thing had to give, then marriage is easier to give up on than children, if it is for a partner you know is committed to you and wants to have children together (but also who is sensible enough to understand that there might need to be a marriage, if not a wedding, at some stage if one partner becomes financially vulnerable).

If a woman really wanted kids and her partner didn't, she be advised to leave him and find someone who did share her plans for the future. It's fairer for him to wait until you've decided you want kids before he commits to marriage. Otherwise you'd marry now and potentially he'd be heading for a messy divorce so he can pursue his dreams of having a family with someone else.

If you don't want kids let him go find a woman who does. He's been honest he wants them so he's left it to you to make up your mind. It's nice he would be committed to you regardless but we wouldn't expect people to give up their dreams for a partner really. A woman who really wanted a baby would be fully supported in leaving her partner because they didn't want children, although the difference may be the time limit on fertility. However, this man may want to be a fairly young dad and that's an acceptable preference.

But don't have a kid just for him. They are life changing. I had two by your age (first unplanned) and it's tough, changes the relationship and your life is not your own. Not having kids is a very valid and understandable choice and there is no middle ground. There are plenty of men who don't want kids if you want that life. No one should be forced into childlessness nor parenthood. And I don't believe in soul mates.

*aside from infertility, but that's a completely different potential outcome, although work discussing how you'd work through this.

I think there's two issues at play here, OP:

1. as you say, we don't live in a Mills and Boon world. As you're obviously well aware, you have a very romanticised view of marriage. All that talk of 'the one', 'want me more than anything in the world', etc... You're only setting yourself up for disappointment, whatever the outcome. Your partner has a different view of marriage, and I think he's completely entitled to only want to get married if it's with a view to starting a family. So YABU to feel hurt.

2. you're unsure about whether you want children. He isn't. There's no YABU or YANBU here. This is a serious issue, and one which you need to give a lot of thought to, both on your own and as a couple. Don't be afraid to regularly make relaxed time-out for a good chat about this with your DP. It's the kind of thing that will need talking about many times, in detail, and as honestly as you both can.

Imagine a mumsnet post where a poster was devastated because her husband had always said he wasn't sure about children but that he thought he may want them and they would definitely need to be married before it could happen.

They got married, he changed his mind and stopped dangling the carrot. What a complete bastard he would be!

Marriage and relationships are two way and you also need to consider what he wants, most women would say that children would be a deal breaker in a relationship regardless of feelings and I think it would be unfair to think that couldn't be the same for a man.

OP you mentioned children as transient beings who "fly the nest". DH and I are approaching 60 and our children are young adults. We were not too bothered whether we had any but nature took its course and we have two sons. Bringing up children is quite hard work and tests our relationship but having adult children is just delicious, it alters the fabric of your life, everything from travelling to what music you listen to. It broadens our horizons brings us loads of pride and pleasure and we don't expect any of this. Think about life 25 years ahead if you decide against children and how your life will be then. Over the next fortnight DS1 will be returning from travelling in South America and sharing his experiences, I'll take him shopping before he goes back to work, out to dinner, maybe a film. DS 2 will be arriving to talk about his internship ( fashion, most exciting) this is a really good bit of life I wouldn't want to have missed. having children isn't just about babies, schools etc. etc. it is about the shape of your family in the years that come.

there is absolutely no way I’d have children with someone if I wasn’t married to them. I just wouldn’t

Have you heard of contraceptive failures?

What if you got pregnant now? Would you have an abortion because you aren't married or expect a shotgun wedding?

You seem fundamentally incompatible with regards to major life events.

Marriage is the most important thing to you, having kids is the most important thing to him. Neither is right or wrong but these views are unlikely to change.

I think you need to find someone else who sees kids as an 'add on' to a couple like you do rather than the purpose of a union like he does.

In practical terms there really isn't any reason for a childless man to marry.

It’s me making all the sacrifices though isn’t it??

It’s me that would have to agree to have children, me that would have to endure pregnancy, getting fat, giving up my hobby (which is who I am) for a year, not being able to drink alcohol, eat certain foods, miss out on certain social occasions, put my career on hold, go through labour which I have a MASSIVE fear of. Then me that would have to try and lose the baby weight, get fit again, be available at every blumin opportunity to feed, change & entertain said baby, not be able have any sort of independence for the foreseeable future.

What does he do? What does he sacrifice? Given that he would see nothing as a sacrifice, as he would gladly give up everything for children.

If I got pregnant now, I would have an abortion, yes. We’ve only just started living together, are not married. I haven’t achieved what I want to in my career, I have certain goals that I am on target for re my hobby that I WILL have fulfilled by the end of this year, I’m bridesmaid for my best friend in 3 months time. So no, sorry, I know what I would do if I got pregnant now. I’m not talking now though and neither is he, we both know now isn’t the right time for a baby. It’s the future that’s uncertain.

It’s me making all the sacrifices though isn’t it??

It’s me that would have to agree to have children, me that would have to endure pregnancy, getting fat, giving up my hobby (which is who I am) for a year, not being able to drink alcohol, eat certain foods, miss out on certain social occasions, put my career on hold, go through labour which I have a MASSIVE fear of. Then me that would have to try and lose the baby weight, get fit again, be available at every blumin opportunity to feed, change & entertain said baby, not be able have any sort of independence for the foreseeable future.

But that's why you need to be on the same page on this. Having children is an enormous, life-changing decision. You said earlier on about 'having children for him' but as your quote above demonstrates - that really isn't possible. You have to have children because YOU want them too. If you really feel that you don't, then you may have to accept that this relationship isn't going to work in the long-term.

OP, this post adds a very different slant to things.

Your feelings about having a baby are clearly quite negative. Not that I am disagreeing with them in general - they are things many women worry about before getting pregnant, going through labour, having children.

However I don't entirely see how that quite applies to the situation in hand.

Your DP has said that he would get married if you as a couple are going to try to have a baby. He sounds quite clear on this. And this is both a reasonable and honest thing for him to say: he wants to marry a woman who also wants to have children. This is something that the majority of couples who get married have probably considered. It's one of the basic principles of deciding to be with someone and have a long-term commitment. You have shared principles, shared aims, shared goals.

I don't entirely see how this issue of sacrifice comes into it. You post above reads that if you did decide to have children you, at this moment in time, would see it as a sacrifice that you are making to your partner - rather than something you actively want to do yourself. Because if you actively want children yourself, it's not as if those concerns and fears just melt away (I mean, honestly, I understand a lot of what you've said as I'm making the decision now to TTC#2) but you find a way to manage them, or they become acceptable to you because you know that, annoying as it may be, you have to put up with probably weight gain and sleepless nights and probably not seeing your friends as much etc as you go through the years of having young children.

If you don't think that you want children, that's fine. More than fine. That is your decision and there is absolutely no reason why anyone should have to have children.

However, it is only fair to your DP that he knows the truth too and can make his own decision too. Sadly some issues are so big, and so important, that relationships can't get through them. And whether you both want children is one of those issues.