Dads staying over night

[silverperiwinkle]

What do you think?
m.burtonmail.co.uk/Burton-Queen-s-Hospital-introduce-scheme-allow/story-27564928-detail/story.html

What a horrendous idea.

Putting the needs of the individual over those of the many is always a bad idea.

Writer, as I've already said, in circumstances other than childbearing, patients just have to cope. Saying Oh I couldn't possibly manage etc is just being a bit precious. Because you could.
You were wading in with comments about men etc, which weren't particularly relevant to the argument. (Perhaps you haven't rtft).
Again, as I've explained, I had a horrible 8 day stay. But I managed. If I could do that, then those well enough to be on a ward would manage.
If mn is vile, avoid it

For the avoidance of doubt and to keep Writer happy: in no way do I mean to offend anyone, or belittle anyone's experience (I had PTSD from last time, for which I only recently finished treatment). It just makes me livid that some think it's ok to inflict their wants on others.

A sad reflection of the society we live in? Perhaps.

There was a recent post on the Dadsnet board by a guy who was saying "there was no fucking way" he'd be leaving his wife by herself on the postnatal ward, regardless of what the rules stated. At what point does a man feel so entitled that he thinks his wants supercede the views of the other women who are on that ward, who may not want to have a strange man in the room overnight?

It is another way thinking about it that giving birth is sanitised. No other ward has sales people admitted. No other ward has such long visiting hours and no other ward allows overnight stays (paediatrics excepted).
Many of the women there will have had a caesarian, some after labouring for days, some who have been scared witless, some whose baby is in Special Care, and some who've had morphine as pain relief. Some will have had uncomplicated vb and be out in a day. Some are stuck there for days.
The point is that birth can be a routine matter medically or it can be life threatening or require surgery. Therefore the ward should be treated like any other surgical ward. And babies should be included in the patient count for staffing ratios.

I agree with Writer 100%. BOTH sides need to show a little more respect and consideration for each other's feelings. To call women who might be struggling emotionally and physically and mentally "precious princesses* is really vile and unnecessary.

I had a difficult pregnancy due to various health issues, and a horrible and traumatic birth, which left me with very unpleasant birth injuries. DS was also quite ill, and wasn't fit to be discharged for seven nights. I was moved to a single room two days into my week long stay... DP wasn't allowed to stay with me even then, and I really really struggled without him. I have had severe PND ever since, which really affected my bond with nine month old DS, at least at first. I couldn't fault the nursing care I received - the midwives and auxiliaries were nearly all lovely and happy to help me throughout, but I needed the emotional support of my DP. I firmly believe that if DP had been with me right from the start, I wouldn't have had so many issues with my son. betty, maybe you're a strong woman, and maybe most other women are strong but some women have more problems with childbirth and caring for a baby than others. It doesn't make us precious, any more than a woman who has reason to be wary of strange men is precious for not wanting them in the ward.

I'm not saying that every father should be allowed onto the postnatal wards all night, btw. I can see the issues, many of which have been pointed out with great eloquence on this thread. I just don't think posters should be so dismissive of other women's genuine medical need to have additional support (including mental health needs, which can't always be fulfilled by nurses).

And not every woman CAN cope, Chickchick. I wonder if Charlotte Bevan would have felt so unable to cope if her DP had been allowed to stay with her? Was she being precious? Even if you do seem to cope, as I did, there might be serious aftereffects that could be avoided.

Oh for heavens sake. I AM NOT talking about those who have additional needs, whether mental or physical. As I have said repeatedly, such women should absolutely have private rooms, DPs staying and one to one care ideally. Where that doesn't happen, it's postnatal care which is failing.
Perhaps my princess comment was harsh, so for that I apologise. I am talking about ladies on here who seem to think their wants more important than the needs of others. I in no way meant to belittle the experience of anyone, as I have already said.
Starling, referring to Charlotte Bevan is disgraceful. She clearly needed additional help, and it's tragic she didn't get it.

Hear hear StarlingMurmuration.
Spot on with MH issues too x

Lots of the arguments against having dads overnight would apply to having dads (or granddads, or uncles, or teenage sons, or male friends) on the wards during the day too.

I don't disagree that having more people overnight in the typical wards as currently set up would be a flippin nightmare. In a world where resources were unlimited and we could build lovely new hospitals I would support building more rooms designed for couples to stay over, but we are so far away from that world that it's laughable.

FWIW I would have loved to have had DH with me: I was so lonely on the postnatal ward, following an easy birth but DS in SCBU (I was overlooked by the MW on a number of occasions, I had to actually ask to have a postnatal check, but that's another story). But I would have hated sleeping in the ward with five other DPs as well as the five other women and six babies there

Rather than waste money to make more rooms where partners can stay over that money would be much better spent improving facilities for the patients including more staff to support women.

Why is referring to her disgraceful? My exact point is that she and others like her DO need additional help and you have no idea whether posters who say "I struggled and wish I'd had my OH there" are in a similar case, so you shouldn't label ANYONE precious

FWIW, I believe I felt very similar to how she felt (I obviously can't say for sure). When the whole terrible sad case was unfolding, I was definitely thinking "There but for the grace of God go I", having had DS very shortly before it occurred.

I've already apologised for that, Starling.

"It is believed that Bevan had suffered from schizophrenia and depression."

I really don't think her having her partner stay overnight would have helped there - the poor woman was clearly very ill and needed help. You could flip it around to argue for more staff on the ward because if it was better staffed then maybe someone there could have realised the extent of her problems and kept a closer eye on her.

There are clearly gaps in care and these need to be filled by staff not partners.

I agree - if there had been more staff, one of them might have identified that she was struggling and prevented her leaving the hospital, but, having been in much the same situation myself, I think she may not have struggled so much if her OH had been able to stay with her.

My main point was that no-one posting here has any idea what other mothers are going through, so it would be nice if everyone could remember that.

The hospital I gave birth in is where women from the local prison go to give birth. Now while I've got no issue with this, and support their right to get the best maternity care available, I'm not sure whether I'd want their partners in the next cubicle, separated by just a curtain!

I am NOT a precious princess. The failings in care and attitude from the overstretched staff on the postnatal ward meant that I suffered PTSD and months of CBT and forking out a fortune for a perinatal psychologist.

If my husband had not been there, I know that it would have been a lot worse. I am extremely lucky that I have not ended up with permanent physical damage from the neglect from the staff.

Quite, Starling. And your desire to have support from someone who doesn't need to be there because it is a hospital doesn't trump the needs of your fellow patients who would prefer the ward was only occupied by other patients.

As I said earlier, the wants of one should never trump the needs of many. That is a very poor way of designing policy.

The arguments against are cogent and compelling. The ones for are largely about filling in the gaps in inadequate postnatal care.

I have just sent this thread to my DH and told him that I will not be giving birth in a NHS hospital if I return to the UK and my IVF is successful. GBP10k sounds like a bargain to avoid the vision of hell being described on here!

How and why do people put up with this? I live in what is laughingly referred to as a third world country and it still manages to take care of post partum women without resorting to sleeping 28 to a room with FFS. This would not be tolerated, norally, politically or culturally. (Mind you, neither would the level of neglect that is clearly going on!)

I would be really interested to hear from any HCP's to see whether anyone has ever made a fuss. I rather suspect they rely on people being too cowed and exhausted to complain.

oddfodd, do show me where I said it did.

The fact that there are cases where having a DP present helped, doesn't mean that a blanket policy of "DPs welcome overnight" should be implemented.

Nor could you police it on a case by case basis ("He can stay but that one has to go home").

The answer is more staffing and more single rooms. That's only possible with more investment and funding, so the answer is more investment and funding, not the removal of a patient's right to privacy and peace on a post natal ward.

I also think we should leave Charlotte Bevan out of this. She had complex MH problems and its not for us to argue the toss about what could or could not have prevented the tragedy that ensued.

I'll restate: my point is that posters shouldn't dismiss other mothers' very real NEED for additional support, often because of mental health issues. Additional support that a midwife couldn't necessarily provide, even if they ward is well staffed. It's not necessarily a case of one person's desires trumping another's. Sometimes it's a genuine medical need, and I think that should be acknowledged.