To think its unfair to force the dad to be at the birth?

[ASorcererIsAWizardSquared]

Just hear me out :)

We've all heard the view that if they were there for the conception and should be for the birth, but if they (for whatever reason) really, really didn't want to be in the room during the birth, is it fair to force them to be?

DH was at both of mine, but i gave him that choice as i had my mum as my primary birth partner, if he hadn't wanted to be, i'd have been a little disappointed, but i'd have never FORCED him to be there.

I think birth should be as positive and calming and stress free as possible, and having someone in the room who really doesn't want to be there doesn't sit right with me.

I've spoken to a couple of people who've said if their Dh's/BFs had refused they'd have ended the relationship, but i think that's borderline abusive.

If you DIDN'T want them there, and they wanted to be, there would be uproar at them trying to force, bully and blackmail their will on the situation, so why is it ok in some womens' eyes for them to do the same to them?

If I was going to have to be there he sure as he'll was too!

What is this spiders business?

I think it's to do with phobias. It's seemed we've elivated not wanting to be at a birth to being phobic of hospitals/birth.

I think Sally's making the point that you shouldn't have to do something distressing and awful just because your partner wants you to.

Regarding DancingHat's reply, to keep the comparison valid, your partner wouldn't be in the bath with you. He'd be on the side, trying to offer you moral support but not actually experiencing it himself. Maybe you'd find that helpful, maybe you wouldn't...you shouldn't be demonised either way. But if your partner was a terrible arachnophobe, and all he would be capable of doing would be screaming and yelling and panicking, then I don't know if it really matters whether he's being immature or not manly or whatever. The point is, you probably wouldn't find his presence comforting in that situation, so why force it?

Which I should point out really isn't the point of this thread, if a woman has a partner who has a full blown phobia of hospitals then I think they'd already be prepared for their partner not to be there or have a plan for a home birth.

If a man was as terrified of birth or hospitals as someone with really severe arachnophobia, and hence could not be supportive while someone else grappled with a spider, that might be a helpful analogy.

But I don't think that's really what this thread is about. Men who just go erg, no thanks, manky fannies are yucky, are probably a bit immature to be fathers.

Possibly, but it's too late to stop them procreating by that stage. Whatever their reasons, if they're going to spend the entire time thinking how yucky you look and so on, then I don't understand why you'd want them there.

Sheba - I agree with most of what you say. And agree that there's no point forcing anyone to attend (although you lost me slightly on the stuff about 'real men'. I don't think anyone has mentioned that have they? Or did I miss it - sorry if I did).

But my comparison would be this:

Imagine my husband has to have some scary surgery for which he has to remain conscious (say something on his eyes or brain). And the hospital says "we've found it helpful for patients to have a loved one with them if they wish". And suppose DH says "Libraries, I'd like you to be there".

In that scenario, doesn't it make me a selfish arse for me to make this all about me and what I'd prefer? I love my DH and I want to support him, so I do my best. I might point out ways that someone else would be better if I am really worried about doing it. But fundamentally, a decent partner supports if asked.

And if I said "oooh, I'd rather not I'm squeamish" then no, there would be no point forcing me. But it wouldn't make me less of an arse.

Possibly, but it's too late to stop them procreating by that stage. Whatever their reasons, if they're going to spend the entire time thinking how yucky you look and so on, then I don't understand why you'd want them there.

No, I wouldn't want a partner there who thought like that.

Mind you, I wouldn't want him anywhere near me again.

Well that's fair enough, Libraries, but not everyone has the same taste in partner. It is likely to be one of those things where you simply don't know how you'll feel until you're in the situation. Given that we're talking about the situation where birth is imminent, then it's kind of irrelevant by that point if you shouldn't have chosen him. If my partner thought I'd look horrible and manky, I might well think all sorts of things about him but I would see no benefit to forcing him to attend.

Regarding your comparison, the thought of being present at such an event obviously doesn't distress you unduly, so that's great. But people have different constitutions. My grandmother was a panicker and a worrier and much as I loved her, I would never have wanted her around in a crisis. Some people faint at the sight of blood, some people just don't have the mental constitution to be useful or supportive at these things, some are just mentally scarred by it.

If your partner were one of these people and you still really, really wanted him there, then it's something you have to decide between you - I don't think we can make any blanket statements about what's always right and always wrong. But I just don't see what benefit there is to the patient to force attendance by someone who is really, really wishing they were anywhere else.

Regarding your comparison, the thought of being present at such an event obviously doesn't distress you unduly, so that's great. But people have different constitutions. My grandmother was a panicker and a worrier and much as I loved her, I would never have wanted her around in a crisis. Some people faint at the sight of blood, some people just don't have the mental constitution to be useful or supportive at these things, some are just mentally scarred by it.

You have completely taken the opposite meaning to what I intended.

Watching someone go through that is the worst possible thing I could imagine being asked to support. It distresses me massively just imagining it.

And that was my point. My DH might decide I was a worrier and he wouldn't want me there. That would be his call. And I might want to warn him that I might panic. But if he asked, and I said no because I'd rather not, I stand by the fact that that makes me an arse.

And again, I've said quite a few times that there is no point forcing attendance. There is no point making someone be there. Of course there isn't. But it still means I am putting my personal feelings over my partner wanting my support. Which IMO is a bit shitty. And I would think less of someone who did it.

Phobias etc are obviously different. But I've seen threads from couples where the partner has a genuine phobia, and normally that partner is very disressed that their issue is stopping them being the support they want to be. Which is the opposite of the 'all about me' attitude we are discussing.

I think couples should decide what's right for them for their child's birth. DH was there for DS's birth more because it was 'expected' than either of us actuality wanted him to be there. DM was my real birthing partner as she's much better at asking questions and finding the midwife than DH who is terribly British stiff upper lip and polite! When DD was born, DH stayed at home with DS and left me and DM to it. The arrangement suited us all much more!

People seem to be simplifying this.

i already said i dont think 'i don't fancy it/i'd rather not' doesn't count as 'really, really' not wanting to.

Well, no Libraries, its not. A Phobia counts as 'really really' not wanting to be there imho. A few people on here and women i've spoken to IRL about it have actually said they don't care what their Dh/OHs feelings are, they WILL be there or they can fuck off and leave.

I don't think thats fair.. its blackmail.

i haven't asked if its wrong to think they're a numpty, to be disappointed or to try and talk them around.

I've asked if its unfair to FORCE them to be there.

Ok OP, so a phobia is really really not wanting to. What else is in that category in your view?

Incidentally, I think in most cases partners with phobias do want to be there , but their phobia stands in the way.

So it different from 'really really not wanting to' in motivation. As well, of course, as being a medical condition.

Cross post - I know your original post was about forcing. but the discussion has evolved and broadened. As they tend to on here.

Perhaps part of the problem is the expectation of the partner 'being there' without question. I know, when I've been discussing the birthplan with my partner, from the start I asked how involved he wanted to be. This of course means anything from "not at all, can't deal with it" to "I will be bottom end, holding out both hands to catch my precious baby". I think asking openly and honestly from the start (probably a better idea before conception!) can lead to a better build-up of compromise between partners. Most of the time, you'll be on the same page, but if not at least you have a few months (or even a few years) to figure out a plan, without resenting the other for either forcing them through something they cannot deal with, or left feeling unsupported. There cannot be a sense of entitlement from either side, it was probably far simpler in the days of "men must keep away". Even if it seems a bit medieval now, at least everyone knew their role and no one was underfoot, as it were.

Blimey.

In response to the simple question, nope I don't think "forcing" anyone to do anything is ok except brushing DCs teeth

My DH was there for both deliveries, but I was worried that it'd be stressful for him at DC1s birth - in a unit we'd both worked in - so I asked a really good friend to be a birth partner too. That worked really well, as they both were very well versed in what I wanted to happen.

For DC2 it was just me & DH. He was great, but I think he found it v distressing to see me in such pain.

For DC3 (due oct) I'm anticipating he will be there & he'll be fab. & fighting for more than paracetamol for pain relief!

As far as phobias, yep, I can understand that is a big challenge. Took me ages to get over my fear of needles - I can still pass out if you stick one in me (I'm a Dr, so I'm +++good and gentle at sticking needles in other people!).

As far as being there for a partner in hospital when they are at their worst, it quite often doesn't happen like that, which is actually more stressful for relatives (ie they don't get to support during surgery, etc, which can be really stressful to have to just sit and wait out).

Often people give oblique responses to things. So a man who just doesn't fancy being there might actually be terrified. Acknowledging that can be difficult - and as we've seen in this discussion, might also be considered a failure/lack of maturity/etc. no need to heap on more negativity, really. Better to try & understand & come up with sensible alternative plan to support woman than "force" a man to do something he doesn't want to, I'd have thought...

Academic - I wasn't suggesting my surgery analogy would happen in real life. I was trying to find a comparable scenario to birth which was close enough to real life for emotional comparison.

My OH didn't want to be there. He voiced this for the first time when I was about 38w with our first and I just dissolved into sobs.

I just couldn't have imagined doing it without him and the mere thought of him not being there distressed me immensely. I was so distressed I felt bereft. We had previously talked about birth / labour etc and at no point had he mentioned not being there.

So the compromise in our situation came from my OH. Had it been the other way round (DP incredibly distressed to the point of tears / severely anxious etc...) then maybe I'd have had to made a compromise BUT that's a moot point.

Had my OH still refused to be there knowing how much I wanted and needed him there then yes that could have been a deal breaker in all honesty.

Just to clarify - whilst labour can be very undignified and traumatic I have managed to get through 2 without a "torn, bleeding, shit smeared fanjo" as per 123Jump's post on page one!!

Also the argument of men not being present historically holds very little weight for me as the process of childbirth historically (Victorian Age until very recently) has been completely over medicalised... men were not "allowed" to be present as childbirth was seen as an illness and quite frankly women were treated pretty barbarically in some instances. I for one would not want to go back to olden day practices?

Well Libraries, it may make you an arse (in your mind - not in mine), but does it mean you should be forced to attend? To prove what point, and to whom?

Sheba - I have posted about five times that there is no point forcing!

Well then, we are in agreement :)

I guess the difference between us is that you have stronger feelings about the person's reasons for not wanting to be there and what it says about them. To me personally, I don't find it relevant...it just is what it is.

Try looking at it the other way round: should a woman be forced to give birth alone if she really doesn't want to?