To think there is a divide between childless/free people and parents?

[zeezeek]

And that it is mostly perpetuated by women?
As someone who didn't have DC until I was 40, indeed spent most of my adult life without them, I have seen both sides of this. Before the DDs came along I endured a variety of comments in my 20's about when we were going to have a baby, in my 30's about how I was a career girl and then when I (miraculously considering the amount of chemo I had) got pregnant at 40 a whole raft of smug comments ranging from how I didn't know what was coming to relief that I was finally joining some kind of exclusive club.

Since having the DD my life has changed, but it is no more and no less worthy than the life I had before. I don't feel superior, I don't feel wise. I still hate and despise the idea of breastfeeding. The sleepless nights weren't great, but actually the ones I had during my PhD were much worse.

In the years before I had DC I lost a lot of female friends when they had children. It wasn't my choice. I've never been a demanding friend. They decided that I didn't fit into their lives anymore so ditched me. These days my closest friends are male (some parents, some not; some whose DW/DP I know, some I've never met). Some of the women who ditched me years ago have tried to return to my circle - seemingly with the sole intention of smugly telling me how much trouble I have ahead of me as my DDs get older.

People are childless/child free for a variety of reasons - infertility, choice, leaving it too late, not finding the right person.

It doesn't make them less of a person - in some ways they are more empathic, sympathetic and understanding. Many people can tell stories of inspirational friends, relatives, teachers who didn't have children but who inspired, loved and supported DC in their lives. Why do some women allow this divide to happen? Becoming a parent is life changing - but so are a lot of other things....eg surviving a life threatening illness or completing a physical challenge. We all contribute to society in different ways - having children is just one of them.

Sorry for the rant.

Very true oneflew!

Being a mum is great.
So is not being a mum.
Pros and cons for both.
Breeding is what we do.
You may not like the term. But....it's what we do. :)

Lotta...it's not compulsory! :)
I envy my childless friends at times. And I'm sure vice versa.

On a different part of the post- It is of course true that people in all situations - parents, child free people, men and women etc - can be smug and self satisfied. But we all notice it more when we think they are being smug about something we don't have/share.

This is true. We all have a tendency to be alert to one divide above all others and notice annoying people on the opposite side of that one to ourselves. Then confirmation bias comes into play. It could be nonparents/parents, ttc-easy/ttc-hard, parents of SN children/parents without, singles/couples, sahm/wohm.

If the divide is nonparents/parents then it's like shooting fish in a barrel because so many people are parents that you can find every sort of annoying personality represented in that group.

Yes some behaviours can only occur in the circumstances of parenting, but that doesn't make parents actually worse than average people as a group. Some behaviours are apparently brought out by being childfree by choice and chippy about it - most cf people aren't that way, but some pretty horrible misygynist and dehumanising language about women I've read has been from childfree people who've made the parents/nonparent divide the only thing they want to notice ('breeder' and 'moo' to describe women who are mothers, for instance).

Baddz, I think most people have their wistful moments, wondering what life might have been like if they had chosen a different path

Moo?
As in a breastfeeding woman?
Wow.
I was once called a prostitute because I am a sahm (at the moment).

I think the key point is that we're not 'designed' at all. We just are. Some things we've evolved enjoying (sex, eating, caring for children - as those who didn't enjoy caring for children had genes that didn't tend to get passed on as much) but that's as a group, statistically, not individually. Individuals vary wildly in what they actually enjoy. Just like there are women who are taller than many men but most women are shorter than most men.

I know I do, lotta! :)
My kids are wonderful. Really and truly. But it's a fact that having them has has major impact on me both physical, mental and emotional.
Add to that lack of earning power and it's not always roses and sunshine.
I am still struggling with physical issues from ds2s birth (he is 6) and I had late onset pnd with ds1.
Motherhood is not the be all and end all.
Honestly.

Oh I believe you! And I don't think its helpful to anyone to have motherhood portrayed in the media as some kind of blissful fairytale existence, where all that's involved is carrying a perfect little creature around in designer outfits and snapping back into your own skinny jeans mere seconds after giving birth. Ditto for the way relationships are portrayed - my DP is wonderful but he's a complex human being who can be very difficult to live with (as we all can). He's not my Prince Charming and he certainly doesn't 'complete' me

Moo as in any mother. (Google 's u c k s to b e m o o'.) The people who say that are not unpleasant because they're childfree, they're just unpleasant and childfree. Just like some people are parents and also unpleasant or inconsiderate or smug, not unpleasant or inconsiderate or smug because they're parents.

FatMomma, I also tried for years to have a baby and in some ways relate the intense joy you feel in parenting. But I think that you’re making a couple of mistakes. Firstly you’re ascribing your own personal experience of motherhood to motherhood in general. Not all mothers find that motherhood gives them an amazing doorway to a technicolour world and a feeling that they have fulfilled the purpose they were put on earth for. For some mothers it feels like a round of unrelenting drudgery for which they are totally taken for granted.

I think you’re also incorrect in thinking that feeling can only come from motherhood. I think similar feelings are felt by people who’ve discovered their true vocation, or create pieces of art or machinery, engineering etc which change peoples' lives and fulfil them.

I really do think it shows an incredibly myopic worldview and lack of imagination to think that these sort of feelings are universal to mothers and not to realise that other people find those feelings in different places to yourself.

AMummyAtLast, firstly I think the fact that you view people who don’t have children as only being capable of ‘boring people’ about their jobs and you see conversation with people as a choice between talking about your job or your child just illustrates a lack of depth , imagination and conversational skills in yourself rather than anything deep seated about the nature of women as a group. –I also think you might be surprised at how many people find talking about children boring too--.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with women finding being a mother incredibly fulfilling. I don’t think there is anything wrong with a woman thinking that for herself being a mother is the most important thing in her life and her defining characteristic. The problem arises when these women decide to start judging and evaluating other women by assessing how much they live up to what they believe is a woman’s primary objective which is being an all consumed mother who finds ultimate fulfilment in motherhood alone. And when they devalue women who don’t fit in to their very narrow stereotype of what a woman should be like and should be doing.

It's a problem, when any woman, makes a judgement on whether a woman is worthy of friendship, time or talking to based on whether she does or doesn't have children.

Patience I'm sorry to hear about your troubles, I hope this pregnancy works out for you

At 36 I'm one of the last of my friends to get pregnant, I'm currently 12 weeks after 2 years TTC. Obviously it's still early days and I view myself as childless.

There is a divide between parents and the rest of us but there are lots of life experiences that divide people. I'm much closer to my friends who have dealt with infertility than those who didn't have any troubles conceiving, we understand each other in a way that those who didn't struggle don't. I expect I'll feel the same way when I have a child but I hope I won't patronise my childless friends and will still be interested in their lives rather than just wanting to talk about my pfb at the time (thankful that MN is anonymous and none of my friends will be able to quote this at me a year down the line )

Having DC is the pinnacle of my life too. I have other successes and hope to have more in the future but nothing beats this. Most parents I know feel like this. None would discuss it with non-parents, and that's part of the divide.

This huge upset for childfree people - they know we think this and it bugs them - I completely understand too. Lots of my friends are childless because they haven't met the right person, and this feeling of this being something they can't achieve is truly painful. And there you have it: permanent elephant in the room.

I think Toastand's post earlier could have been written by several of my friends:

^^This thread has confirmed to me that parents, especially mums, do consider themselves part of some sort of club. All a bit, 'I'm alright Jack' if you ask me. But jeez do they judge, bitch and snipe at or about each other !

However, I've noticed the same, 'band of brothers' or 'us and them' mentality with smokers too.

Rare for a father to be as shitty, self centred and entitled as the majority of mums are. I really do wonder why this is.

I'm child free by the way. Not childless. I chose not to have children, yes I did it deliberately. Why does that infuriate the breeding pairs so much though ?^^

Obviously, this is quite bitter and immature but I think it is how my childless friends really feel. They know women don't become more bitchy when they have children, they know the 'majority of mums' aren't 'shitty self-centred and entitled' but they'd love to come on here and say those things because they are hurting - from feeling excluded if nothing else.

Toastand also wrote: ^I personally refer to some, in fact very few mums as to whether or not they are tame.^

I recognise this too, from single friends confiding that I was OK because I didn't talk about my kids 'too much'. I completely understand and, having been childfree before having children, this makes some sense. But in friendship, having such a big topic that one party wants/needs limited is going to affect that friendship.

This is a fascinating thread.

I do apologize to anyone who felt I was insensitive or myopic or dismissive, and I certainly don't think we're all the same. And I definitely agree that motherhood isn't all wonderful (boring, lonely, thankless, scary, etc as well). I think I tend to assume most people who are on this website are parents, so sorry if I should have been more mindful of people who aren't.

Not meaning this to be smug, but when we meet s/one in RL, when we discover a commonality, it becomes something we can talk about. So, I met some people I didn't previously know at the weekend, we were all parents but what we talked about was walking our dogs.

I like meeting with other parents because I can have very practical conversations about trivial things. Like how to deal with a late night, what other people's boundaries are, etc. At this time 2 years ago, my DD wanted to go into town on her own with a friend. Friend's mum and I had a conversation about what we were comfortable with, how responsible we thought they were, etc and there was a managed situation.

Is being a mother the pinnacle of my life? That's a great question. It's probably going to be my legacy. I don't think I'll achieve anything very much else that will outlive me (I mean, I expect and hope my DD will outlive me). Maybe I'm just not contributing enough to the human race.

Before I had my DD (after years of not wanting children, followed by years of infertility treatment), I confided to my DM that I was worried about having the same problems DSis had had. I think DSis probably had PND and also she definitely had what I now know, thanks to MN, is a high-needs baby. She found parenthood very very difficult. I wouldn't dare ask her, but I would be astonished if she regarded it as the pinnacle of her existence. DM said 'you won't have the same problems DSis had because you are different, so different things will happen'. She was right, and I still get the 'you couldn't possibly understand' line from DSis, even though I am now a parent too.

I did feel socially excluded by infertility as well as being childless/childfree, so YANBU. I haven't forgotten what it felt like. I hope it opened my eyes a bit to what it feels like to be out of the norm for whatever reason.

I also can't say that I have got massive technicolour pleasure from becoming a mum (although I enjoy aspects of it a lot) but I did get a real kick from finishing my novel, some projects I have fundraised for and qualifying as a teacher. We're all different!

Also, only you can clarify what you meant, OP, but I took it that you personally greatly disliked breastfeeding, rather than that was your general view on it? I didn't enjoy it and wasn't any good at it, but that doesn't mean I can't see why other women do it.

On another point, I have definitely met some smug dads! and grandparents!

Fatmomma, I think you could have had a sensible conversation about that with a non-parent. My DD is 2, so if I'd discussed that it would have been from my perspective of teaching teenagers.

There doesn't have to be a divide between parents and people who don't have children. A bit of give and take (on both sides) can go a long way. I would never ask anyone why they don't have children or if they want children. They're very personal questions to ask. A lot of my single friends don't have children and I suspect it's because they haven't met the right person and weren't prepared to embark on parenthood on their own. Doesn't mean they wouldn't like children and asking them, "Don't you want to have children?" would be just rubbing it in. Another friend has fertility issues and has known (since she was a teenager) that she will never be able to conceive and carry a child. She doesn't share this information with the whole world so people who assume she's a hard nosed career woman or too busy living it up have no idea of her reality. If people choose not to have children then that's fine too. Takes all kinds and it's not like they're committing a crime or anything.

For the parents I would say the following:-

Don't forget about your friends. Just because you're feeling all loved up with your DH/DP and DC, doesn't mean it will always be the case. There may come a time when your relationship is on the rocks and your sweet babies will turn into nightmare teenagers and you'll need your friends so badly. Also, your friends might be very handy as babysitters .

Make an effort. You may be too tired for a big night out but what about meeting your friends for lunch or the cinema instead?

Your friends may enjoy spending time with your DC but try to spend some adult time with them too. They may have important issues they want to discuss that aren't suitable for small ears. Or they may just want an uninterrupted conversation where they have your undivided attention.

Try not to talk incessantly about your baby or child. If your friend doesn't have kids, they may not be enthralled about the quality/quantity of your baby's poo or your DC's star performance in the ballet.

Just because you think parenthood is amazing, don't go pushing it on your friends and don't make patronising comments about people who don't have children. Your friends are likely to take offence and find these comments hurtful and excluding.

For the childless/free people the same pretty much applies but in reverse:-

Don't forget about your friends. They may appear to be all loved up with their DH/DP and DC. The reality may be very different. They may be struggling with lack of sleep and all kinds of baby/childcare issues they never had to face before. They may be suffering from PND. If they've had a c-section, they might be still recovering physically. If they're on maternity leave from work, they might be feeling lonely or isolated and missing the routine and social aspect of work. As other posters have outlined, new mothers may be struggling with body image problems - the baby weight they failed to lose or cracked nipples from breastfeeding or whatever.

Make an effort. Seeing your friend might involve calling to her house because she can't get a babysitter. She may be too tired for a big night out but what about meeting your friend for lunch or the cinema instead?

Accept that new mothers in particular may be besotted with their new baby or DC. They may talk at length about the quality/quantity of your baby's poo or their DC's star performance in the ballet. Hopefully this will wear off a bit and normal service will resume.

Just because you think parenthood is a very weird choice, try to keep that opinion to yourself. Your friends with children are likely to take offence and find these comments hurtful and excluding.

tayto I think that's a really great post.

but this for me, as someone in their thirties who hasn't (yet?) had children, is the crux of it: She doesn't share this information with the whole world so people who assume she's a hard nosed career woman or too busy living it up have no idea of her reality.

If you don't have kids, people make enormous assumptions about why that is, all of which seem to be based on your character, rather than the simple fact that most of my childless girlfriends simply haven't met the right man yet and don't want to go it alone (largely based on the 'OMG parenting is so exhausting' message from parent-friends). This is where I think the divide comes in - the sense that if you're not like the majority of women, you must be selfish/career-obsessed/heartless/infertile/insanely fussy/prefer fancy holidays and cars to furthering the human race.

The reality is often a lot less dramatic, and only adds to the already gloomy feeling you get in your 30s when everyone else is coupled up and having babies - the door to the club is going to slam shut any minute and everyone thinks you're hard-nosed and/or under the illusion that you're Carrie Bradshaw. Great.

Who the hell thinks the childfree are lesser people? I wouldn't waste my time with anyone who thought that.

the sense that if you're not like the majority of women, you must be selfish/career-obsessed/heartless/infertile/insanely fussy/prefer fancy holidays and cars to furthering the human race.

I got this, a lot throughout my 30's, especially when my career was starting to take off and most of it from people who knew that I was (as I thought then) infertile. Some of the comments seemed to be implying that we weren't trying hard enough to have children, as if we should have been using all our life savings to pay for IVF, for example. The reality was, whilst it was sad that we thought we weren't going to be parents (my DH has 4 DC from previous relationships so I was already a step-mother) we accepted the situation and was actually ok with it.

I liked life before having DC and I like life afterwards. Of course it was life-changing - but it is only one of many things in my life that could be described as such: my fiance dying young was another, going to University, doing a PhD, getting married, surviving cancer....all life changing events too.

Before the DDs were born my DH and I decided that we wanted them to enhance the life we already had and made a conscious decision to fit them into our lives and not the other way around. Maybe we were lucky, but it seems to have worked.

As for breastfeeding, well, firstly I should have kept my gob shut on MN about it and known better. But yeah, I have no problem with women who want to do it. However, I chose to remove myself/look away when they are doing it because it makes me feel uncomfortable. It is entirely my problem, so I sort it. I chose not to try it because I hated the idea of something feeding off me. So I bottle fed. It's really not an issue.

LazyLohan I think you misread me and assumed I was backing up the view that being a mother is the be all and end all. I wasn't. Just as I wasn't saying that people who talk about their job are boring. I was saying that I considered that people would be bored by me discussing my job. I don't believe myself to be a scintillating conversationalist - the exact opposite in fact. I can be incredibly unsociable. But having DD gives me something to talk about with likeminded people.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with women finding being a mother incredibly fulfilling. I don’t think there is anything wrong with a woman thinking that for herself being a mother is the most important thing in her life and her defining characteristic. The problem arises when these women decide to start judging and evaluating other women by assessing how much they live up to what they believe is a woman’s primary objective which is being an all consumed mother who finds ultimate fulfilment in motherhood alone. And when they devalue women who don’t fit in to their very narrow stereotype of what a woman should be like and should be doing.

I agree. Don't judge people who don't have kids, don't judge people who have kids but don't find it the most fulfilling thing ever, and don't judge people who think having kids was the best thing they ever did.

This is a fascinating thread.

I don't think being a mother defines me or is the pinnacle of my existence. Maybe from an evolutionary point of view it does. Then again, if we didn't go out in the world (not necessarily in paid work), learn things and develop our brains we couldn't pass on any new knowledge to our children.

I think being a mother has made a difference to the person I am, but it's not the only experience that would change a person. Bereavement is certainly an example of a life changer.

I have a career than other probably think defines me. It certainly does to an extent. I have had fascinating insights into human nature through my job and wouldn't want to give it up.

Maybe the answer is we are all.individuals and the sum (or more than the sum) of our many varied experiences.

Other people , not just other!

*Ps fatmomma I found your post insensitive and upsetting and the quick nod to the miscarriers patronising.

How nice for you to live in your magical, technicolor land of Oz.*

This with bells on.

FatMomma I sincerely hope you do not say all that about technicolor lands and women's purpose is to carry children to people ttc. What happens if 5 or 10 years down the line they're still ttc? You think they'll forget that little conversation as you will have done? Or do you think maybe it could cause them real emotional damage?

In the industrially-developed world, 25% of women remain childfree, and rising.

Just thought I'd mention that we are not weird anomalies!