To think there is a divide between childless/free people and parents?

[zeezeek]

And that it is mostly perpetuated by women?
As someone who didn't have DC until I was 40, indeed spent most of my adult life without them, I have seen both sides of this. Before the DDs came along I endured a variety of comments in my 20's about when we were going to have a baby, in my 30's about how I was a career girl and then when I (miraculously considering the amount of chemo I had) got pregnant at 40 a whole raft of smug comments ranging from how I didn't know what was coming to relief that I was finally joining some kind of exclusive club.

Since having the DD my life has changed, but it is no more and no less worthy than the life I had before. I don't feel superior, I don't feel wise. I still hate and despise the idea of breastfeeding. The sleepless nights weren't great, but actually the ones I had during my PhD were much worse.

In the years before I had DC I lost a lot of female friends when they had children. It wasn't my choice. I've never been a demanding friend. They decided that I didn't fit into their lives anymore so ditched me. These days my closest friends are male (some parents, some not; some whose DW/DP I know, some I've never met). Some of the women who ditched me years ago have tried to return to my circle - seemingly with the sole intention of smugly telling me how much trouble I have ahead of me as my DDs get older.

People are childless/child free for a variety of reasons - infertility, choice, leaving it too late, not finding the right person.

It doesn't make them less of a person - in some ways they are more empathic, sympathetic and understanding. Many people can tell stories of inspirational friends, relatives, teachers who didn't have children but who inspired, loved and supported DC in their lives. Why do some women allow this divide to happen? Becoming a parent is life changing - but so are a lot of other things....eg surviving a life threatening illness or completing a physical challenge. We all contribute to society in different ways - having children is just one of them.

Sorry for the rant.

[ladygaga1980]

*who has

[Baddz]

Bunbaker...I went to a funeral of a family friend some years ago.
She had 6 kids (Irish Catholic family) and looked after her disabled housebound husband.
You know what the person who did the eulogy said?
About this woman who had hopes and teams like the rest of us?
That she always kept the children clean.
:(
It saddened me more than I can say.

[ButterDish]

How nice to see some measured and even-handed posts on a topic that's often divisive. I had my child at 40 by choice, having not planned to have a child for most of my adult life. I had a fulfilled, eventful life before having him, and it's the same now, only differently good. My life wouldn't have been ruined if we didn't conceive - to have a child was never an all-consuming need.

Motherhood is definitely not the pinnacle of my life. My son is wonderful, and I adore him, but he's not an 'achievement' of mine, he is his own self (even at three, it's clear he's not my creation, and is passing through on his way to an independent life). I've always had a mix of friends with and without children, and that hasn't changed, as I haven't essentially changed. I am who I always was, but with a child. And I agree with whoever said up the thread that putting all your emotional eggs into the basket of your child is a mistake. My friendships are as important as ever - though we're scattered around the world now - and I think it's actually important for DS, as well as me, to see that his parents don't just exist within the family but in a wider world of work and friends etc.

Perhaps the real divide is between those who regard motherhood as the pinnacle of their lives and those for whom it's one thing among many and/or a more complicated, less unambivalent experience...?

I can imagine that if I felt utterly defined by motherhood, it might have an impact on my relationships with friends who don't have children...?

[goodnessgraciousgouda]

"A woman's purpose is to carry/have children"

So hey, the 1700's rang and want their opinions back.

I can't imagine anyone saying this about a man. No-one is looking at George Clooney or Jay Leno and saying "but isn't it such a SHAME that they never filled their purpose as a man".

Likewise, I'm pretty sure Dame Helen Mirren, Katherine Hepburn or Condoleezza Rice have all contributed far more to the world than a random woman picked off the street who happens to have pushed out a baby at some point.

As others have pointed out, I think it mostly comes down to whether or not people have always been self involved twats, regardless of family circumstance.

The one difference I could understand would be between involuntarily childless couples and friends with children. I could definitely understand why some people would need to cut contact if they found it too painful.

[Lottapianos]

Great post goodnessgraciousgouda

My best friend had a baby 3 years ago and has just had another. I'm mostly childfree but have moments of very strong ambivalence and I have struggled terribly with her becoming a mother (I've kept this to myself of course). However, our friendship is doing mostly ok because she is not a self-absorbed muppet and she is still capable of conversation about other things. I'm happy to talk about her children and am genuinely interested in how they are doing, but if that was the only topic of conversation, I'm not at all sure that we would still be friends.

So basically there are self-absorbed ghastly people, and becoming a parent seems to intensify that if anything. It doesn't mean that all parents are smug and entitled, but some definitely are.

[achieve6]

OP, I’m really glad you started this thread. It sounds to me as if you have been unlucky with your friends – losing them when you didn’t have children and now they are telling you you are about to have a tough time? That’s just bizarre.

But in terms of the divide, I really don’t know. I am childfree by choice. I didn’t even know I was “allowed” on here until a parent friend told me there were lots of people in my position on this site. And I was baffled – I thought, the clue is in the name, surely?

Then I looked at her screen while we were at her place and saw the range of topics and the interactions and I was really amazed that this whole world existed. I had been on a chat board before but it was dominated by a very strange attitude. So for example, a weight loss thread would be full of people telling you that however you wanted to do it was “wrong”. There was also a lot of misogyny – the type that’s so ingrained, if you pointed it out, you would get told “can’t you take a joke”.

I have been questioned heavily (IRL) for my choices whereas I also don’t feel that parents get questioned for theirs. So I just thought a site called “Mumsnet” had nothing to do with me. I understand it’s a brand but even the FAQs when you join doesn’t say “non-parents welcome” so to some extent I still feel as if I have no right to be here, though I am heavily involved with godchild and friends’ children.

I don’t classify commonalities with friends or potential friends by whether or not people have children. Most of my friends do have children, statistically that is bound to be the case. But I am sort of aware of the divide of which you speak.

I should probably also add that I am not the type to have “non-close” friends. I am introverted and I don’t like socialising for the sake of it. So in some ways, it stands to reason that I feel this way – I only have good friends in my life. Maybe if I had lots of “social contact” friends, I would have come across a bigger divide.

That’s actually one reason I like belonging to a chat board – I can have intelligent conversation without having to have a network of “contacts” with all the social obligations attached.

I’m rambling but the bottom line is – if there is a divide then I think MN is going a long way to address it and I think that’s really good. But maybe any divide is media created in the first instance. I do feel as if the media enjoy classification and division and I think there is pressure on mums to feel as if they are in some sort of exclusive club – and I still think the media like to paint childfree women as unfeeling witches.

[ladygaga1980]

No-one has a 'purpose' if you get down to brass tacks.

Some people have a focus though.

[ladygaga1980]

achieve6 yes I think being slightly introverted helps me too! I don't really do superficial friendships and know that being a parent is not always the best thing ever, because close friends will be honest about these things.

[ladygaga1980]

And yes the media (i.e. dailyfail mainly) loves division, particularly identity based division i.e.

• working families VS scroungers
  
• parents VS non parents
  
• SAHPs VS WOHPs
  
• north VS south
  

Etc etc.

We obviously have a need to 'fit it' and when we feel like we might not, it makes us anxious, and perhaps more likely to read articles that either reassure us where we are going 'right' or point out where we are going 'wrong'.

Why can't we all just accept that there are no real divisions. We are all PEOPLE who are trying to make the best of things and don't have a long time to do it (gets all philosophical...)

[achieve6]

Butterdish "Perhaps the real divide is between those who regard motherhood as the pinnacle of their lives and those for whom it's one thing among many and/or a more complicated, less unambivalent experience...?

I can imagine that if I felt utterly defined by motherhood, it might have an impact on my relationships with friends who don't have children...?"

Yes, I think that's probably it. I did have to ditch a colleague who told me everything I did in life was pointless if I didn't have kids. We weren't friends, she was a colleague who left after having a baby and tried to keep in touch, but I never returned her calls after that one (I did also make it clear, politely, how I felt about that remark).

[ladygaga1980]

derails thread ever-so-slightly

In politics and sociology, divide and rule (or divide and conquer) is gaining and maintaining power by breaking up larger concentrations of power into pieces that individually have less power than the one implementing the strategy. The concept refers to a strategy that breaks up existing power structures and prevents smaller power groups from linking up.

[zeezeek]

AddToBasket - maybe your childless friends are merely reacting to you treating them like second class citizens. And wtf do you mean about not being able to upset a mother? I can think of many situations in which I have been upset....what about a child being ill? How utterly ridiculous. I am very glad I do not have you as a friend: either before the kids or after.

[ladygaga1980]

addtobasket you sound like a horrible person. I feel sorry for your friends.

[AddToBasket]

'you sound like a horrible person. I feel sorry for your friends.' 'I am very glad I do not have you as a friend'

I'm kind and empathetic, not horrible at all . I am neither smug nor noisy about parenting. That's why my childless friends feel comfortable talking to me, and are prepared to share their feelings.

This thread is about the divide between parenting and childfree. Imagine someone had posted that the 'majority' of childless women were 'shitty and self-centred and entitled' but that childless men didn't seem so bad. I assume loads and loads of posters would have called that poster on it (rightly). That's what Toastand wrote, but about parents. She posted about parents being 'tame' or, 'jeez', bitching about each other.

It's fair for other posters on the thread to unpack that (including me). We actually know that the majority of mothers don't somehow become more bitchy or self-centred or shitty (?!) through motherhood. I understand the motivation behind it. It's just that I don't see why comments like that should stand.

[Twasthecatthatdidit]

I do think it's true addtobasket is one of the few people who called toast out on a fairly silly post - though maybe most people were ignoring it because it was so silly? Anyway, before I had kids I did sometimes think (but didn't say!) that type of "breeder" stuff. I've no idea why. I don't think I was bitter. when I had my baby I did change from sozzled party girl into attachment parenting, breastfeeding besottedness...came out the other side though to something approaching normalcy and enjoy the company of both my child free and parent friends (probably see the child free more actually!)

[ToastedOrFresh]

IIRC some people agreed with me. I assume my post/s have been reported and I'm glad there's disappointment following non-deletion.

Some posters pointed commented on AddtoBasket's posts negatively.

My posts on this subject are not silly. What an infantile word. Do not speak to me like I'm five years old please.

Why do parents just lazily assume that people who choose not to have children are out boozing and partying every night ? Like they did because they knew that the party would be over once their children came along ?

What's that about ?

Parents enjoy 'child free time' and treasure it because as far as they are concerned they've 'earned it'. However, people like me, who chose not to have children are derided as selfish, not a real woman, not living in the real world etc.

I resent the assumed, 'upper hand' of mothers. I say this because IME it's never fathers that make this judgement.

[patienceisvirtuous]

I ignored Toasts generalisations, they were a bit silly. Mothers are individuals and can't be grouped into one personality type.

Addto' comments were below the belt. She picked on a vulnerable group, (those who are involuntarily childless) and spoke about them like they're pathetic/lesser/second-class citizens i.e. They want to lash out and hurt mothers but no mother cares about anything they could do/say. So nasty.

If you were aiming that at Toast, she's childfree, not childless. So your point re the visceral pain doesn't apply.
Re childless women, those people you describe made-up are so far removed from my experience of childless. I am childless, I am in pain - I would never 'snarl out' at mothers. Or resent them for having children. It's what I want too, afterall! It's not their fault I am in this position. But if any of my friends or peers spoke about me/looked down upon me (because of my position) like Addto does, a. I would not want to associate with such a nasty person and b. I would be glad my empathy levels outweighed theirs in spades.

As a childless person you know that people with addto' opinions exist, it's one of the isolating factors discussed here.

[patienceisvirtuous]

And can I ask addto, you say no mother would care about a childless friend trying to hurt their feelings; ...would a mother care if one of her friends with children was trying to hurt her feelings then???

[Doobigetta]

FWIW, I don't think toast was being anywhere near as rude or goady as addtobasket, who prompted several mental "ODFODs" from me reading this.

[RamblingRosieLee]

I often think my childless friends project what they think people are thinking on themselves.

The only thing I think about my childless friends is - if they knew how constrained you are in terms of freedom, cost etc by dc you would really make the most of that freedom to go anywhere and do anything.

[patienceisvirtuous]

Rosie, they probably know that. My friends who are mums might think I should be out there making the most of my freedom but what they don't all know is that I have spent big chunks of the last couple of years pregnant, miscarrying, recovering. We also have 'costs' in that we're paying for/saving for private investigations/fertility treatment.

Also, as is the case with many involuntarily childless people, I have depression now (circumstantial) so that hinders freedom/joy massively.

I know that if/when we have dc life will change fully, especially in terms of freedom - and that there will be significant financial implications. It would have been nice to spend these 'free' few years with DP living it up, but it just hasn't worked out that way.

[AddToBasket]

The point about not being able to upset mothers was specific to Toastand's comments of 'breeding pairs' 'tame' 'shitty' 'self-centred' 'entitled' and so on. As you can see, she didn't hold back - but most of the posters ignored her because that kind of transparent insult about motherhood wouldn't work. Obviously, women can and do upset each other on other topics.

Patience, I have no idea why you think I'd make up having childless friends who are hurt and angry about not having children. It is bizarre that you say I picked on them when I described things they've said. That you don't feel resentment of parents is true of you, but several of my friends have described huge resentment of, eg, parent parking spaces, parents leaving work on time, parents socialising at soft plays rather than the pubs. Really, it is not unusual for non-parents to feel like that.

[patienceisvirtuous]

I said they were made up because you grouped all your childless friends into one.

Maybe you're just an unpleasant group, you talking about your friends like they're beneath you, them being snarly and intolerant. Birds of a feather etc.

This could go on forever, so I'm going to leave the thread now. Those with measured responses made it an interesting read.

[patienceisvirtuous]

Ps fwiw I hear regular complaints re p&c spaces but it's only ever from parents directed at those without children using them (I agree with the parents p.o.v. in the main!!