To think there is a divide between childless/free people and parents?

[zeezeek]

And that it is mostly perpetuated by women?
As someone who didn't have DC until I was 40, indeed spent most of my adult life without them, I have seen both sides of this. Before the DDs came along I endured a variety of comments in my 20's about when we were going to have a baby, in my 30's about how I was a career girl and then when I (miraculously considering the amount of chemo I had) got pregnant at 40 a whole raft of smug comments ranging from how I didn't know what was coming to relief that I was finally joining some kind of exclusive club.

Since having the DD my life has changed, but it is no more and no less worthy than the life I had before. I don't feel superior, I don't feel wise. I still hate and despise the idea of breastfeeding. The sleepless nights weren't great, but actually the ones I had during my PhD were much worse.

In the years before I had DC I lost a lot of female friends when they had children. It wasn't my choice. I've never been a demanding friend. They decided that I didn't fit into their lives anymore so ditched me. These days my closest friends are male (some parents, some not; some whose DW/DP I know, some I've never met). Some of the women who ditched me years ago have tried to return to my circle - seemingly with the sole intention of smugly telling me how much trouble I have ahead of me as my DDs get older.

People are childless/child free for a variety of reasons - infertility, choice, leaving it too late, not finding the right person.

It doesn't make them less of a person - in some ways they are more empathic, sympathetic and understanding. Many people can tell stories of inspirational friends, relatives, teachers who didn't have children but who inspired, loved and supported DC in their lives. Why do some women allow this divide to happen? Becoming a parent is life changing - but so are a lot of other things....eg surviving a life threatening illness or completing a physical challenge. We all contribute to society in different ways - having children is just one of them.

Sorry for the rant.

[Fatmomma99]

zeezeek, I just want to say to you that you've had such a hard time, and I'm glad things are working out the way you want them to with so much to overcome.

There's a lot of hugely interesting posts here (so, thank you for such a great thread). I'm not going to join in the arguments, but just add what's been true for me.

I married quite young (24), but my DH got an inconvenient testicular cancer, and it ended up taking us 6 years to conceive, so my DD is v precious to me (not to imply anyone reading this who has DC aren't equally precious to them!). 3 of my BFs were childless, two still are (and are also single) and the third now has a 5 year old (my DD is now 13 1/2). There is a mis-match, I think.

When I have (for example) younger cousins who are thinking about whether to TTC or not, I always say to them, it's like a doorway you have to go through. On the one side of the door - the one you know - there's lots of fun stuff..... You sleep in til 10 or 11 at weekends, wake up, have tea/coffee, papers and sex (I miss that a LOT!). You go on holidays when you want to. I took a reasonable amount of drugs. You can be spontaneous.... All sorts of things.

You can do them to an extent when you have children, but not in the same spontaneous way.

But when you 'walk through that doorway' (have a child) it's like that scene in Wizard of Ox when she wakes up and it's all technicolor... But it's hard to explain to someone without a child how when they look at you and smile and the smile means "you are the centre of my world" what that feels like! Or how they flex their feet while they're feeding. Or how they wave their arms because they 're so happy to see you. Or how she blew a raspberry and we laughed so she blew more because SHE WAS ENTERTAINING US!!!! Or how cute they look in their first dressing gown. Or how my heart sings when she sends me a text that says "thinks mum, lv U x"

My BFs are still my BFs, but I can't talk about being a parent in the same way as new friends, who are parents I can. Becauuse it's too boring for them, and out of their experience. One of my BFs used to describe me as a "smug married" (before I had children).

My single friends have WAY more money than we do, and nice cars, and amazing holidays and the lifestyles they want and that suit them. I think there's a part of both of them that would give it all up to be in relationships with children. There's a part of them that loves every minute of their lives and would hate mine.

The BF who now has a child used to bitch about her circle of friends being inconsistent with their children, and I used to try to explain that 'yes, no does mean no, but if you get a "please" or something else you're working on, you might change your no to a yes". She now has a child and the bitching she does about the parents around her is somewhat different.

I do think there's a massive difference between having children and not having children (and no disrespect to those who have miscarried - I feel for you very much).
And I do feel - and I felt this before I got pregnant - that biologically, we are alive as women to carry children. I'm so, so glad I experienced pregnancy (the ever-amazing Worra posted recently that she told family she was pregnant before "the piss had dried on the stick". I got that!) and birth. I've done childbirth. It was amazing. I don't say that to many people because my firends who've not been there don't need to hear it and the ones who have already know.

But - fucking hell - I squeezed something amazing out of my vagina!!!! And it hurt (a lot). And I love what I squeezed out more than I can ever say. She snuggled me on the sofa tonight. And she looks like I used to look. And she's better than I ever was or could hope to be.

And I can only say that on an anonymous internet site.

[Lavenderice]

I am childless by choice and I think it's rather telling that these days my closest friends are either male or younger females. Although I adore children, (thankfully so as I work with them) I find that if I'm in the company of women around my age talk will turn to children and I am excluded from the conversation, not intentionally, it's just that obviously I can't join in.

What does really irk me is the fact that people think it's perfectly acceptable to ask why I don't have children. They always look back blankly when I ask why they have them.

[Ragwort]

What does really irk me is the fact that people think it's perfectly acceptable to ask why I don't have children. They always look back blankly when I ask why they have them.

^^ Well said, I hate the bland assumption that 'every woman' wants to have children. Being a parent is, in my opinion, the least interesting thing about me and I am bored to tears by people who talk about 'becoming a mother was the best thing that ever happened to me'. And what a bizarre comment to make Fatmomma to say that we are alive as women to carry children - are you saying that a woman's only function is to be pregnant and give birth - what does that mean for women who don't want to have children, or who very much want to yet, for whatever reason, can't have children?

[Lavenderice]

we are alive as women to carry children What a ridiculous comment. It's women with views like this who are perpetuating this divide. How dare you look down on me because of a choice I have made.

[Fatmomma99]

I wasn't trying to be bizarre, Ragwort... It took me 6 years to conceive. But I do believe biologically we're here to procreate, I'm not religious, and don't believe we're here because of any higher being.... It's just a freak of nature we all exist and I think it's driven in us to recreate that existence, and because I'm female, I carry.

I wasn't trying to be goady, and I am very sensitive to anyone who can't because for very, very many menstrual cycles, that was me. And that was what I thought when I was wanting to be pregnant and wasn't.

As I said on my post, I was only giving my experience.

[Fatmomma99]

Sorry, Lavenderice. I wasn't meaning I look down on anyone who hasn't. That wasn't what I was trying to say. And I don't.

But IN MY EXPERIENCE, when I got pregnant I felt like I had a link with every woman who'd ever walked this planet who'd procreated.

I'm not trying to upset anyone, but that's who I felt. I felt connected to the earth. It wasn't looking down on anyone, but it's how I felt.

I'm sorry if I've upset you. And I'm not disrespecting your choices or the hand you've been dealt. I've just talked about how it felt for me.

[Scuttlebutter]

Yes, there is a divide but it is one which varies considerably according to the people concerned, their ages and their stages of parenting and lifestyle. I don't have children and I'm now 50. My lifestyle is completely different in many ways to how I lived in my 20s - gladly single then, now married with 4 dogs. The majority of my friends are childfree, but when I look at them, I don't see a homogenous group. There's a big difference, say, between one of them who's a school governor, runs a community library, makes chutney and loves the Archers and my other friend who's a widow in her sixties, runs her own business which takes her all over the world to some incredibly exotic locations and still finds time for voluntary work. Or there's a huge difference in both ages and lifestyle between my gay single friend who's heavily into motorbikes and a recently married gay couple who are settling into rural life, yet they all get lumped into this heading of non-parents.

And even for parenting - the poster above waxed lyrical about squeezing a baby out of her vagina - that would exclude a friend who had a Csection. Is she any less of a parent? Are step-parents? Adoptive parents? People who've had a MC?

We've all met (and subsequently run like hell from) smug baby bores but there are many more factors that are interesting about people than whether they have DC. I go to dog training class twice a week, and I have no idea whether the other women in our class have DC - it simply doesn't arise in our conversation. You can make it a barrier if you want to, but I think it's easy to make this more divisive than it needs to be.

[CloserToFiftyThanTwenty]

I agree with posters who have said that it can be divisive if people want it to be. And it is such a major life experience that it would be a bit odd if it made no difference at all to the dynamics of your relationships. But that doesn't mean that just because you have children you can only be friends with other parents, any more than losing both your parents early means you can only be friends with other orphans or having cancer means you can only be friends with other cancer survivors. It might mean that you feel you have something in common with them, and at times only they will really get what you are going through, but not to the exclusion of all other friendships.

[ToastedOrFresh]

Lazy Lohan - I hate that 'You can never have the insight and understanding until you are a mother so we are divided' attitude. Patronising insulting nonsense.

This^^. Especially if this poster is a parent. Thank you. I personally refer to some, in fact very few mums as to whether or not they are tame. It's just what I think of them, they will never know this.

Although I have to remind myself, 'was she an arrogant bitch before she had children ?'

[AddToBasket]

Completely agree, Closer. On certain subjects there is a huge gulf and on others there isn't at all.

I have been thinking about this a lot recently as several of my good friends are childless. I am beginning to notice a set-in-their-ways-ness that isn't possible when you have to balance your own needs with family needs. They speak about their pets in a particular way. They programme their time differently. They're resentful of things like parent and child parking, or people being 'so into their kids'. They'd probably tell you I/parents don't go out much and need to socialise more. We're the same friends we ever were on almost every other subject. So the divide is there but not a friendship killer.

OP, I think it's interesting you say you don't think your life is 'more worthy' now. For me, that has been a big change - my life is more worthy since having DC as I spend time thinking about how to improve things for them. I am much more accepting of self-sacrifice, my goals are longer term - it's enriching to be this invested in the next generation. Before I had kids I would believe I was all these things. After I had kids, it was true.

That's not to say all parents go on that journey. And, obviously, it is not the only path with valid worth.

[AddToBasket]

What do you mean by 'tame', Toasted?

[ToastedOrFresh]

Civil and unselfish, Add to Basket.

[ToastedOrFresh]

This thread has confirmed to me that parents, especially mums, do consider themselves part of some sort of club. All a bit, 'I'm alright Jack' if you ask me. But jeez do they judge, bitch and snipe at or about each other !

However, I've noticed the same, 'band of brothers' or 'us and them' mentality with smokers too.

Rare for a father to be as shitty, self centred and entitled as the majority of mums are. I really do wonder why this is.

I'm child free by the way. Not childless. I chose not to have children, yes I did it deliberately. Why does that infuriate the breeding pairs so much though ?

[UrethraFranklin1]

I think maybe calling them calling things like breeding pairs is what infuriates them.
You're calling people nasty and smug while exhibiting the same qualities yourself.

Some people are just dicks. Some people are just smug fucks. Some people are arrogant bitches. They are these things whether they have children, or dogs, or jobs, or hobbies, or any combination of these or anything else. People are people. Making a line between parents and non-parents is stupid, as if all the billions of parents all share any particular qualities, any more than all the non-parents do.

[Imlookingatboats]

My experience doesn't match yours, but I'm sure and I have had different experiences/different friends.

I do get a bit teeth gritty at 'women bring it on' or 'women are their own worst enemies' bollox though.

As Urethra above said, some people are just dicks. It has nothing to do with gender.

[ToastedOrFresh]

I do get a bit teeth gritty at 'women bring it on' or 'women are their own worst enemies' bollox though.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Could you explain a little, please ?

[Imlookingatboats]

I find those terms/phrases unjustified, stereotypical and sexist.

[Bunbaker]

I agree (except for your odd hatred of breastfeeding which is just weird).

I have never lost friends due to being childless for so long (infertility issues). Since having DD I made a lot of new friends, but I am still friends with my childless friends as well.

I don't think that being a mother defines me. I am me and just happen to be a mother as well. My life is different, not better or worse pre DC, just different.

[fourtothedozen]

You have an odd idea about breastfeeding, but that aside, no I don't really agree.

Like you I had children much later in life, brilliant career, travelled to many exotic places, so have lived a great deal of adult life as a childless woman.

However I don't think it is sensible to generalise. We all have different experiences on becoming a mother.
Some of us sail on regardless, others like me have found it a profound and transformative experience.

I don't know how old your DC are OP, but a lot of the changes have happened as my children grew, dealing with tantrums, having a child bullied at school, supporting kids though puberty, seeing them turn into adults.
Many of the changes didn't come until many years after the actual births.

I still think your comment about breastfeeding stinks.

[slightlyconfused85]

I haven't experienced this; I was early to have my first child; I was 26 when dd was born but remain friends with childless friends and have plenty of friends with children.

I agree, however, that all contribute equally to society children or not.

[chrome100]

I'm 34 and childfree by choice. Most of my friends don't have kids, either through choice or not having met the right guy, but plenty of them do. I don't feel any differently towards either group, I love them all. Nor do I feel my parent friends view me any differently. I enjoy hearing about their kids and how they're getting on but their stories always remind me why I don't want any :)

[Nargles]

I think in most cases this divide happens for obvious and unintentional, not mean spirited reasons, and is probably more profound in younger women who have more active nightlifes etc

I have had experience of trying to maintain a friendship with friends after they've had children where it has become very difficult to see them due to coordinating working ours and their schedule and in one case in the first year I struggled to even manage a phone chat due to my working hours clashing with their schedule. You have to remind yourself not to be bitter and understand why it happens. That said the friendships I have managed to maintain with friends who have children are the ones who have when possible (be that once in a while or a few years later when the child is a little older) made the effort in return to meet up as adults as well as with children and take an interest in my life too. Friendships will only last if there is some common ground but you have to be supportive of the parts of each others life that you don't have in common even if you aren't that interested.

Friendships that don't manage that, and I've had a few of those too, probably weren't that strong to start with.

[Micah]

Your friends with children probably dropped you as a friend because of your attitude breastfeeding. Which, you know, often comes with the whole pregnancy and birth thing.

I didn't actually enjoy breastfeeding, but did bf until I've a year. If I'd had a "friend" who openly found me, and how I fed my baby, disgusting, then the friendship wouldn't have lasted. Presumably you'd have refused to see me anyway, as I'd have had to bring the baby to feed. Your loss.

[morelikeguidelines]

I think you are right, op.

I think sometimes people find parenting so hard and all consuming it is hard to keep up with friends who aren't in the same boat. It's not always conscious / deliberate.

Some mums (normally mums rather than dad's) are incredibly smug. I know a few like this (I am wohm and sometimes feel the smugness is directed at me in an "oh God you have to work, how common/ what bad parenting").

I have made a big effort this year to keep up with friends both childfree / less and other parents. It isn't always easy to make the time. However I thjnk it is rewarding if you do. Spent time with friends who are a child free couple on Friday eve and it was so lovely - nice to be with people who don't have kids as their main focus.

It does take understanding both ways though. These friends were very good about me spending most of last year massively antisocial. But parents also have to see the value in having time with their friends without the kids there.

Plus I really don't want to get to 50 (or whatever) when kids no longer need me and have no friends!

[nooka]

It's a bit crazy to mentally divide the world into parents and non-parents and then complain about that divide. It's self perpetuating, surely? If you think that parents/mothers behave in a certain way then you will see and experience that largely because of confirmation bias.

Sure all parents have some common experiences of parenthood and all women who bear children have some common experiences of pregnancy and childbirth (actually probably a bit less there). But within that there are huge variances in experience. For example Fatmomma's experience sounds completely alien to me, even though we both are mothers. I didn't enjoy being pregnant, had two emergency c-sections, one of which was amongst the worst experiences in my life, was probably a less nice person immediately after and was very happy to have someone else look after my babies (who are fabulous teenagers now).

The OP's complaint that parents don't realise that she wasn't partying because she was working very hard is another one that seemed a bit blind to the fact that plenty of parents, even mothers work hard too, and that may have nothing to do with whether or not they have procreated.

Some people are a bit self absorbed, that means as friends they may not be the best when your paths diverge. Others you may have enough fundamentally in common that it really doesn't matter, spending time together is still great fun/ an important connection. Some friendships ebb and flow and that doesn't mean that any snubbing or ditching has happened.